[K'Chain Bull'shite]

So, among the revelations that Twilight and the Watch discover in Kharkanas, this little gem sticks out:

Quote

. The Tiste Andii weren't trapped. They got away."
"They found a way out, yes."
"How?"
He cocked his head. "Us, of course."
"What are you saying?"
"'In Twilight was born Shadow.'"
"I was told none of this! I don't believe you! What you're saying makes no sense, Yedan. Shadow was the bastard get of Dark and Light – commanded by neither –"
"Twilight, Shadow is everything we have ever known. Indeed, it is everywhere."
"But it was destroyed!"
"Shattered, yes. Look at the beach. Those bones – they belong to the Shake. We were assailed from both sides – we didn't stand a chance – that any of us survived at all is a miracle. Shadow was first shattered by the legions of Andii and the legions of Liosan. Purity cannot abide imperfection. In the eyes of purity, it becomes an abomination."
She was shaking her head. "Shadow was the realm of the Edur – it has nothing to do with us, with the Shake."
Yedan smiled – she could not even recall the last time he had done that and the sight of it jolted her. He nodded. "Our very own bastard get."

Notice how the Watch throws the term 'bastard get' back at Twilight. So he's basically saying that the Shake were somehow ancestral to the Edur.

Some impressions:

The Shake were charged with guarding the First Shore, where Light met Dark. Presumably they were originally Andii but contact with this barrier changed them? Or was it simply that they mixed with the Liosan (I think there's a passage in RG that says something about there being some Liosan blood in the Shake) to produce the first Edur?

Anyway, so whatever the Shake did , it was repulsive to both the Andii and the Liosan but then Silchas commanded Blind Gallan to provide for them a road out of KG...

It's all very confusing...

edit: it was Clip in RG that suggests that there's Liosan blood in the Shake, when he comes to collect Nimander and company:

Quote

“I have come a long way, to this Isle of the Shake -- they are our kin, did you know that? I suppose you did -- but they can wait, for they are not yet ready and perhaps, will never be ready. Not just Andii blood, after all. But Edur. Maybe even Liosan, not to mention human. No matter.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 11 January 2010 - 04:11 PM

[maro]

That appears to be the case - although I found it the most opaque bit of the book. Very ephemerally written. Deliberatley obtuse I'd say.

[Hetan]

Then there's that whole thing with the twisted and malformed demon-like get of the Shake - the ones that are killed on birth.

Quote

Often among the Shake there had been born demon-kissed children. Some would be chosen by the coven and taught the Old Ways; the rest would be flung from those cliffs, down into the thirsty sea. Gift of mortal blood, momentary, pathetic easing of its need.

That's pretty strange, especially when you take into account Gunth Mach's "memory"

Quote

And the sly mockery of the waves on the shores as a dying Matron loosed her eggs into the surf in the mad hope that something new would be made – a hybrid of virtues with all the flaws discarded.

[Blend]

 Hetan, on 12 January 2010 - 01:13 AM, said:

Then there's that whole thing with the twisted and malformed demon-like get of the Shake - the ones that are killed on birth.

Quote

Often among the Shake there had been born demon-kissed children. Some would be chosen by the coven and taught the Old Ways; the rest would be flung from those cliffs, down into the thirsty sea. Gift of mortal blood, momentary, pathetic easing of its need.

That's pretty strange, especially when you take into account Gunth Mach's "memory"

Quote

And the sly mockery of the waves on the shores as a dying Matron loosed her eggs into the surf in the mad hope that something new would be made – a hybrid of virtues with all the flaws discarded.

I just had this vision of Twilight meeting up with the K'Chain Chemalle, and going all Matron on their asses... Can you imagine?

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Udinaas (with some kind of assistance from Menandore) has some interesting tidbits to add on this subject:

Quote

. So what caused the great rift of sons (Anomander, Silchas and Andarist) with mother? Maybe it wasn't her spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe, Seren Pedac, it was finding out who their father was."
She could not help but follow his gaze to where stood Silchas Ruin. Then she snorted and turned away. "Does it matter?"
"Does it matter? Not right now," Udinaas said. "But it will."
...
"Udinaas, I thought the Tiste Edur were the children of Mother Dark and Father Light."
"Successive generations, probably. Not in any obvious way connected to those three brothers."
"Scabandari."
"Yes, I imagine so. Father Shadow, right? Ah, what a family that was! Let's not forget the sisters! Menandore with her raging fire of dawn, Sheltatha Lore the loving dusk, and Sukuhl Ankadu, treacherous bitch of night. Were there others? There must have been, but they've since fallen to the wayside. Myths prefer manageable numbers, after all, and three always works best. Three of this, three of that."
"But Scabandari would be the fourth –"
"Andarist is dead."
Oh. 'Andarist is dead.' And how does he know such things? Who speaks to you, Udinaas, in your nightly fevers?

Also, when Hannan Mosag is trying to bargain with Mother dark and father Light, Father Shadow is notable by his absence in Mosag's pleas - ie., there was no 'original' Father Shadow, only a bunch of Edur who chose their own leaders.

So, if we imagine that life goes on in Kurald Galain for a long time after the birth of Light, the Shake are those Andii charged with guarding the barrier and over time they mix with the Liosan, creating the Edur - their 'bastard get'.

edit: regarding Udinaas' suspicions that the thing that drove the eponymous Andii brothers apart was finding out who their father was, a couple of things I came across while investigating other questions suggest to me that perhaps Draconus was their father:

Silchas to Ryadd re: Draconus -

Quote

"Consort to Mother Dark – he laid claim to that title, eventually, as if it was a role he had lost and had vowed to reacquire."

Denuth to Draconus in the prologue of Return:

Quote

. “Consort of Dark and Suzerain of Night. Greetings.”
“Consort no longer,” came a dry rasping voice.

So if the brothers did have a father, I think it was probably Draconus.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 14 January 2010 - 01:04 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Bre, on 14 January 2010 - 12:56 PM, said:

Udinaas (with some kind of assistance from Menandore) has some interesting tidbits to add on this subject:

Quote

. So what caused the great rift of sons (Anomander, Silchas and Andarist) with mother? Maybe it wasn't her spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe, Seren Pedac, it was finding out who their father was."
She could not help but follow his gaze to where stood Silchas Ruin. Then she snorted and turned away. "Does it matter?"
"Does it matter? Not right now," Udinaas said. "But it will."
...
"Udinaas, I thought the Tiste Edur were the children of Mother Dark and Father Light."
"Successive generations, probably. Not in any obvious way connected to those three brothers."
"Scabandari."
"Yes, I imagine so. Father Shadow, right? Ah, what a family that was! Let's not forget the sisters! Menandore with her raging fire of dawn, Sheltatha Lore the loving dusk, and Sukuhl Ankadu, treacherous bitch of night. Were there others? There must have been, but they've since fallen to the wayside. Myths prefer manageable numbers, after all, and three always works best. Three of this, three of that."
"But Scabandari would be the fourth –"
"Andarist is dead."
Oh. 'Andarist is dead.' And how does he know such things? Who speaks to you, Udinaas, in your nightly fevers?

Also, when Hannan Mosag is trying to bargain with Mother dark and father Light, Father Shadow is notable by his absence in Mosag's pleas - ie., there was no 'original' Father Shadow, only a bunch of Edur who chose their own leaders.

So, if we imagine that life goes on in Kurald Galain for a long time after the birth of Light, the Shake are those Andii charged with guarding the barrier and over time they mix with the Liosan, creating the Edur - their 'bastard get'.

edit: regarding Udinaas' suspicions that the thing that drove the eponymous Andii brothers apart was finding out who their father was, a couple of things I came across while investigating other questions suggest to me that perhaps Draconus was their father:

Silchas to Ryadd re: Draconus -

Quote

"Consort to Mother Dark – he laid claim to that title, eventually, as if it was a role he had lost and had vowed to reacquire."

Denuth to Draconus in the prologue of Return:

Quote

. “Consort of Dark and Suzerain of Night. Greetings.”
“Consort no longer,” came a dry rasping voice.

So if the brothers did have a father, I think it was probably Draconus.

i like you theory on the shake and their bastard get, but then where does Kurald Emurlahn come from?

also, since silchas is already alive when draconus comes to kharkanas, you're saying that draconus had fathered the three then went on his way? only to return later to find that his children and their descendants have become quite the little civilization and suddenly he wanted to take his rightful place.

another part of that conversation with Denuth is interesting. Denuth brings up anomander and draconus bursts out with, "that arrogant upstart" or some such. now he doesn't say my arrogant upstart, but it conveys an attitude of superiority, perhaps derived from fatherhood?

[Torrud Segul]

"And the sly mockery of the waves on the shores as a dying Matron loosed her eggs into the surf in the mad hope that something new would be made – a hybrid of virtues with all the flaws discarded" pretty sure thats a reference to the Jorligg, the intelligent, lizardlike creature in The Lees of Laughters End.

[Urizen]

Draconus is most likely not the father of Rake. During the end of TTH calls Rake his inheritor and son in spirit but not in blood or some such.

[Wampyry]

I don't think Draconus was Rake's father. Rake and Envy got it on for a while. And Envy told Rake she helped him kill Draconus. Seems unlikely that she didn't say our father

[Sinisdar Toste]

well, lets drag him and mommy D up on maury povich and get the truth!

[Hetan]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 14 January 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

i like you theory on the shake and their bastard get, but then where does Kurald Emurlahn come from?

Good question - there's that whole part in RotCG where Rake and Osserc are talking about the new House of Shadow. Osserc wants to destroy it and Anomander gets in his way (as is his wont ) and tells him it is new and should be left alone - “It is my interpretation that this house is of Emurlahn and Emurlahn exists as proof of the accord between our realms. Threaten one and you threaten all.”

So it would seem that it was a creation between light and dark - obviously

[D'rek]

 Torrud Segul, on 14 January 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

"And the sly mockery of the waves on the shores as a dying Matron loosed her eggs into the surf in the mad hope that something new would be made – a hybrid of virtues with all the flaws discarded" pretty sure thats a reference to the Jorligg, the intelligent, lizardlike creature in The Lees of Laughters End.

Probably both that and the K'Chain-like effects on the Shake (or as Deadsmell says, the shore is where little baby K'Chain Che'Malle come from, and that has an effect on the Shake)

[Unbreakable]

Hello everyone!

Like everyone here I've been a huge Malazan fan since I stumbled upon GOTM recently and have devoured every single SE/ICE iteration that I can get my grubby hands on. I guess now is a good time to step out of "lurkerdom" and join in on a discussion (even if it's a little outdated) because I think it's an important topic.

More on point, I reluctantly feel that the Shake will play a huge role still to come. I say reluctantly because I, like some of you here, have really not been that excited by their presence in the series and have been reduced at times to forcing myself through their boring POV's since their induction. However, on my second re-read of DoD, the conversation between Yan and Yedan, mentioned by the original poser, really struck a cord in me as well. What follows is my own wild hypothesis of the origins of the Shake. Read on if you dare!

I believe that the Shake do not fully belong to any of the known Tiste race of Andii, Liosan, or Edur but are instead of unknown descent, which I will take a stab at in a moment. In reading the entire passage (pages 584-587) I have deduced that the Shake were likely sacrificed to open the portal/gate into Wu that subsequently rent Kurald Emurlahn. The Shake people were charged (The Watch) with defending the border between Kurald Thryllan and Kurlad Galain (The Shore) and were clearly abandoned by the Tiste Edur under the command of Scar Bandaris (Scabandari BloodEye) and the Tiste Andii under Silchas Ruin to endure a hopeless battle with the Tiste Liosan.

Yedan states as much, as they are standing on the bones of their ancestors, when he responds to Yan's comment on how the Tiste Andii got away and escaped the fate of the Liosan: "They found a way out, yes." "How?" "Us, of course."

I believe that once the task was done Silchas commanded Gallan to relieve the survivors for some unknown reason; I only say unknown reason simply because Ruin does not strike me as one who is motivated by lesser emotions alone, such as pity, but instead must have a calculating reason for doing so. It has been suggested that Silchas anticipated the betrayal long before Scabandari thrust the knife, so I believe that this was an act strategically done in opposition because the Shake have been described as having a relationship with Shadow as Yedan says, "Shadow is everything we have ever known."

But how does all this tie together, you ask? Again, I believe the Shake have ties to Shadow... but are not Edur. Yedan states, "she (Twilight) holds the falling of night. She is the first defender against the legions of light that would destroy darkness itself." and again he states, "In Twilight was born Shadow." This makes sense because we all know that in the falling of night/twilight is the time most corresponding to the casting of shadow, so the Shake clearly are being suggested to have some unknown aspect to Shadow, their "very own bastard get." But I do not think they are Edur in nature as they are excluded when Yedan relays, "He (Scabandari) left us and took all the Edur with him."

It has been established that the Shake have ties to dark as they are able to form a gate to Kurald Galain due to the Queen having "royal blood", but they are not necessarily Tiste Andii but they are close enought to give people like Clip, who are sensitive to such divinations, pause to their origins. Yan's internal statement "we held against them, here. We stood and we died defending our realm" solidifies that they are native to KG. Moreover, not only do they have ties to Darkness and the realm of Kurald Galain but they have royal descent; meaning, they must have descended from Mother Dark directly as only the princes Anomander, Andarist, and Silchas Ruin are described as royal. The only other solution that I see is if Mother Dark had other progeny with the only likely suspect know: Draconus former Consort to Dark and Suzerain of Night.

It just makes sense to me based upon the information that has been presented thus far. The Shake hold the falling of Night and protect Darkness, and in their confrontation with Light, Shadow was somehow manifested/beget on such a large scale that could be harnessed and manipulated rending KE in the process. It is this relationship with Shadow that will, I think, become important in the healing of Kurald Emurlahn. I believe that this event was forseen by Silchas and prompted his withdraw orders to avoid the erradication of the Shake, who have subsequently survived for thousands of years, bereft from both Mother Dark and Draconus, and eventually lost all identity from their early ancestors and devolved into intermingling with humans and other races and dwelling far from home.

This post has been edited by Unbreakable: 30 June 2010 - 03:34 AM

[worry]

I like that theory a lot, especially the involvement of Draconus. KG certainly has no "Night" given that it's purely of Darkness, and Night requires contrast with Day. And so Draconus is a more earthly Elder God. His mating with MD would perhaps explain the Shake much more than a mere combination of various Tiste relationships, as they are all very much not of this world (meaning Wu), and may even explain why the TA/TE ended up on Wu at all. On a side note, I wonder if there is an Elder God of Day or of the Sun, and why he or she hasn't been a player.