[lord of tragedy]

i've wrestled with this book for a while now and i have some major problems. the plotlines were thin and slightly meh. didn't really care that stormy was the k'chain shield anvil or whatever. yippee they beat the short tails with the help of icarium who managed to merge the five aspects of his fractured identity just in time to save the world. i realise that the little vignettes we recieved of the marines were robert altmanesque shots of longing and goodbye but the frequency of them stole any momentum from the book. the massive ending arrived almost out of the blue. it was hackneyed, cobbled together. there was for me a constant sense of nothing happening. the pay off of dust of dreams was delivered in a far more stylish and assured way. i kept waiting for the point where the wolf woman with tools children would release the magic inherent in her experience of another dimensions dead animals to wipe away the nahruk. undead jaghut shaved knuckles, wolf preistess saves world its all getting very turgid and pot boilerish. i hope all the marines are dead to spare them the embarrassment of the denoument.

the one really affecting moment was bottles use of the wyval. let the vitriolic denouncements begin..........

[Cougar]

Well I loved it, but you're entitled to your opinion. Best one in ages, best since MT I'd say.

The only thing I'd pick up on is where you say you "didn't care about..." I'd suggest at this juncture that the problem lies rather more with you than the book if you don't care about the plot.

I know others disagree, but fan site doesn't mean you have to love it all the time so go wild, however if anyone says a plot line is'contrived' I'll mod them into oblivion, it's fantasy fiction, of course it's contrived, it's the most redundant criticism ever!

[blackzoid]

I agree somehwat although you have to remember, that this is only half a book.

Things I agree with you on:
1: "i realise that the little vignettes we recieved of the marines were robert altmanesque shots of longing and goodbye but the frequency of them stole any momentum from the book"
Very much so, there were too many marine POV's. A similar problem with Reaper's Gale. The number of marine POV's in HoC and TBH was perfect. Expanding the number of squads was detrimental in my opinion. I didn't care about half those marines and hope that most of the fluff marines that added little to the story are now dead.

2: "didn't really care that stormy was the k'chain shield anvil or whatever"
I would somewhat agree. Perhaps the KCCM should have remained more alien.


I would probaly have to disagree with you on the rest.

[Macros]

I wouldn't go as far as say "pants" (which I would say about another malazan book) but DoD definately underwhelmed me. I can easilly say its my least favourite book out of the 9 so far, and I desperately hope that TCG swings back to what I love about the Malazan series. But I can't see that happening, things are getting bigger, convergence, and we're heading to the be all and end all of it, what we've been angling toward this entire series. Things are going to escalate, unfortunately (for me, and possibly others, maybe lot, who have the same viewpoint that I do) this means the human characters, despite our yearnings will look increasingly out of place.
Yes yes, humans can stand up to the ascendants, blah blah, paran twisted her smalls and said dont mess with us.
Fact remains, if the crazy undead laughing icemen want to "go crazy doggy!!" and land on top of the letheras forces, its going to be 90-100% casualties agin for the harinct brigade. or whateverr they're called.

I'm sorry, but some bits of the finale were farcical in my mind. The heavies stopped them cold
we get the point, the malazan army is more than you should expect, they're hardcore. But a smaller unit of infantry does not stop a large organised unit of 10 foot killing machines. The Naruk pushed the k'chain chemalle to the brink. and the bonehunters, a washed out, disillusioned army, stops them for even a few minutes? dont line up and stand. You're in the way, high tail it the fuck out of there. That battle was a pointless device, really annoyed me, they acknowledge they are just in the way, and no concern of the naruk.
Down tools and head to the pub for an hour, come back when health and safety have cleared the way, theres a good man.

I'm sure some important bits were lost on me, it generally takes me 3 runs to get everything in my book, but I'm struggling to make myself want to reread this one. It was slow and almost painful in places. Had its redeeming moments, don't get me wrong, but some of the storylines pissed me off to no end. and that one battle really just argh. annoyed me so much.
Also, over use of italics to emphasize something epic, ala stopped them cold/bred 50million of them
that irritates me a lot

[Mezla PigDog]

Macros, on 27 November 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

That battle was a pointless device, really annoyed me, they acknowledge they are just in the way, and no concern of the naruk.
Down tools and head to the pub for an hour, come back when health and safety have cleared the way, theres a good man.

That bugged me for a while but when you think about it, the Naruk did just pop out of a warren right in front of the Bonehunters. I imagine the logistics of moving a whole army out of the way of a bunch of lizards hell bent on steam rollering you is a bit tricky. So the Malazans at the front dug in. The fact that the command line was nuked in the first Naruk blast then screwed with any orders to form up a retreat. The Naruk also wouldn't have been so tough without their lightning backpacks of doom. So, I can live with that storyline.

The bit with the heavies stopping them cold. Come on! Fanboi action, we all secretly love it!

[Macros]

pulease. I said down tools. no logistics in hightailing my good woman!

I got that point, but the whole thing just struck me as a pointless way to show whats his name rathan gud and QB showing off, and justify resurrecting the BB's (yet plot device, edit away oh fearsome cougar, it just seemed OVERLY contrived to me)

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Cougar is fearsome?

And as said elsewhere, each to their own, I enjoyed it, I'm pretty sure I couldn't write a ten book series with that level of complication, but I do try to absorb the contents so I can at least name a few characters and have a clue of what they're about before I get my stone throwing catapult ready.

[Abyss]

I won't overdo the defence since everyone's entitled to their opinion and i'm biased as all hell in favour of anything SE writes, but two points for thought...

blackzoid, on 27 November 2009 - 01:45 PM, said:

...
2: "didn't really care that stormy was the k'chain shield anvil or whatever"
I would somewhat agree. Perhaps the KCCM should have remained more alien. ...

I thought the point was that in order to avoid extinction, the KC had to aspect humans and try to link more closely to them, hence adopting the SA/D/MS positions and so avoiding being wiped out by the KN.

Macros, on 27 November 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

...I'm sorry, but some bits of the finale were farcical in my mind. The heavies stopped them cold
we get the point, the malazan army is more than you should expect, they're hardcore. But a smaller unit of infantry does not stop a large organised unit of 10 foot killing machines. The Naruk pushed the k'chain chemalle to the brink. and the bonehunters, a washed out, disillusioned army, stops them for even a few minutes? dont line up and stand. You're in the way, high tail it the fuck out of there. That battle was a pointless device, really annoyed me, they acknowledge they are just in the way, and no concern of the naruk....

Actually, they didn't stop them cold. They stopped them after the marines and QB took out the zappy-machines and died a lot. And the heavies weren't having an easy time of it, which is why the Marines jumped back in. And they all went about dying a lot.

The marines and heavies by that point have survived Raraku, Yghatan and the Letherii campaign. They aren't exactly lightweights, plus whatever Beak did to them, if that mattered.

The KN, on the other hand, were 'machines', just that - march fwd and kill. No tactics, no team work, just numbers and power.

And while it wasn't as clear as it could have been, Tavore did seem to think that if they got out of the way they would just be run down and chopped up anyways. It can't be easy to move a fource of ten thousand out of the way of fourty thousand plus skykeeps.

Anyhoo, i had no problems with the scene, but i can see how others did.
because they are cold and dead inside.


- Abyss, liked it a lot.

[lord of tragedy]

i know exactly who am i talking about and if i don't remember the moniker on which erikson is hanging another surprise plot resoloution thats because they are all beginning to blend. the wolf woman was totally devoid of urgency wondering aimlessly through the plot but i'm sure that she'll redeem the whole redmask arc of the story. and cougar contrived is a perfectly coherent criticism. the ending was contrived. it felt like something created rather than the germane occurrence of an event within the world of wu. tool's army turns good after meeting his dead children. there i've given away the ending.

[Cougar]

It isn't, your using the terminology entirely eroneously. Inconsistent with the previously established logic, not in line with stated motivations, incongruous, unlikely or something similar might be more appropriate, every page of any fiction is contrived by its very defintion.

I actually had some serious reservations about the way the end went down, but none of it could logically be described as contrived without aplying the same criticism to everything and disappearing into some kind of relativist goo.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I'm confused at how Setoc the wolf woman is anything to do with Redmask the KCCM Mortal Sword choice, but I'm going to go for being biased and now scuttle to another thread.

[Macros]

I got confused, i thought wolf lady was linked to the awls shame after the wolves ate all the dead grey swords? shes some kind of avatar for togg and fanderay?

Also, cougars entire first sentence made absolutely no sense to me, apart from the ctrived bit. I agree that all fiction is contrived, authors write to get to an end point, and everything before that is a set up for it.
But what i meant is that whole scene seems forced or sometihng, I'm not very good at articulating my thoughts. I didn't like that part of the book, and not because people died, theres too many marines followed to give that much of a crap about them, and I didnt find many of them that likeable beyond helian, but shes drunken comic relief, and that I can identify with. Maybe thats my problem with the scene, fiddler pissed me off and the rest of them were people I didn't like much, so i felt nothing when they got kablmoed.

hmm, I lack direction, I shall distill my thoughts and return

[Sinisdar Toste]

you know, i never got why people were so fed up with the growing nulmber marine perspectives. these people are interesting! i mean, they joined up with the best military in the known world from cultures as disparate as any in the real world and then get selected for the most elite force in that military, the marines. who btw are a unique class of soldier in all of malazland. they go through some of the most harrowing experiences in the books and keep on plugging. just for that i love to read about them.

[Macros]

really?
they annoy me alot, chargrined soldier, making the best of it, reflecting it could be worse, insert minute backsotry here. I just felt it would have been more engaging sticking with the yghattan group, I feel a more potent connection with thme as a reader, having follwoed them for longer, at this stage in the series it struck me as superfluous to throw in more and more marines to the mix, it diluted the emotion attachment to the bonehunters by showing us to much of them. we needed the see the adjudant assialed by her problems, the high command structure, the likeable kenebe, revieled blistig, but of the common soldier we only need a small sampling, its a pyramid, i fell in DoD, the base got too big, and a pyramid with a big bas is just an oddl;y shapped hill

[lord of tragedy]

you've nailed it macros. the y'ghattan soldiers are the only ones i was interested in. the slice of existence shots of the rest of the marines paled in signifigance when compared to the pathos present in a figure like say corabb or bottle. they were sacrificial chaff. thats what frustrated me with this book. we're reaching the ending but the figures who populated are shunted off stage. i didn't care about olar ethil or tools new undead army. i wanted quick ben and fiddler perspectives. the only logical conclusion i can come to with a writer of erikson's quality that the sacrifice of the chaff is deliberate. in a sense he is preparing us for a kind of paired down narrative present in the final book. a return maybe to something like the attack on coral.

it was such a fall off in quality from DOD, which imo is the one that redefines modern fantasy. i just hope he picks it up in the finalle.

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 27 November 2009 - 06:51 PM, said:

...get selected for the most elite force in that military, the marines...

I'm blanking but is that actually accurate - are marines ever described as 'elite'? Sure the Bridgeburners were a special unit by way of their history, but iirc in HoC the marines were actually a hodgepodge unit made up of people who didn't fit into 'normal' infantry. Shock troops, assault troops, sure, but i'm not recalling elite in any best-of-the-best sense. I vaguely recall that in MoI Dujek had an Untan elite bodyguard unit that was mostly killed in Coral.

Wasn't it engineers/sappers who were called 'the heartstone of the Malazan army'? Given that most of the sappers are amongst the marines i suppose that would lean towards 'elite' status... hmmm.


- Abyss, elitist.

[Chance]

Macros, on 27 November 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

I'm sure some important bits were lost on me, it generally takes me 3 runs to get everything in my book, but I'm struggling to make myself want to reread this one. It was slow and almost painful in places.

Exactly the same for me. This time i devoured the book in two days as usual, with most other Malazan installments I re-read immidatly (a day or two later) slower to get it all, not this one which proably won't see a re-read until the next one arrives. It remains the only Malazan book not re-read trice or a lot more .

Too many newish viewpoints was my problem with it...this is the 9th book of a series expected to end in the next installment introducing seemingly redundant plot threads instead of resolving the zillion I expect to be resolved makes me irritated. After all some off those threads that could have been resolved will instead find themselves resolved by ICE sometime years from now...at best...
Well if everyone in the bonehunters end up dead (improbable at the least) I guess things where resolved but in a very poor way...

That is not to say I didn't enjoy some of the stuff a lot, Tool (sadly large parts of his plot was fairly redundant based on where they lead) has always been a joy to read, likewise the warplot with the burned tear and so one where very enjoyable.

This post has been edited by Chance: 28 November 2009 - 12:47 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I know that DoD was only half of a particular story arc, but I was a little disappointed at the number of storylines that are unfinished. Oh well-it was still a cracking book. The Barghast storyline was tragic, but good, damn good.

[blackzoid]

Abyss, on 27 November 2009 - 04:25 PM, said:

I won't overdo the defence since everyone's entitled to their opinion and i'm biased as all hell in favour of anything SE writes, but two points for thought...

blackzoid, on 27 November 2009 - 01:45 PM, said:

...
2: "didn't really care that stormy was the k'chain shield anvil or whatever"
I would somewhat agree. Perhaps the KCCM should have remained more alien. ...

I thought the point was that in order to avoid extinction, the KC had to aspect humans and try to link more closely to them, hence adopting the SA/D/MS positions and so avoiding being wiped out by the KN.

Macros, on 27 November 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

...I'm sorry, but some bits of the finale were farcical in my mind. The heavies stopped them cold
we get the point, the malazan army is more than you should expect, they're hardcore. But a smaller unit of infantry does not stop a large organised unit of 10 foot killing machines. The Naruk pushed the k'chain chemalle to the brink. and the bonehunters, a washed out, disillusioned army, stops them for even a few minutes? dont line up and stand. You're in the way, high tail it the fuck out of there. That battle was a pointless device, really annoyed me, they acknowledge they are just in the way, and no concern of the naruk....

Actually, they didn't stop them cold. They stopped them after the marines and QB took out the zappy-machines and died a lot. And the heavies weren't having an easy time of it, which is why the Marines jumped back in. And they all went about dying a lot.

The marines and heavies by that point have survived Raraku, Yghatan and the Letherii campaign. They aren't exactly lightweights, plus whatever Beak did to them, if that mattered.

The KN, on the other hand, were 'machines', just that - march fwd and kill. No tactics, no team work, just numbers and power.

And while it wasn't as clear as it could have been, Tavore did seem to think that if they got out of the way they would just be run down and chopped up anyways. It can't be easy to move a fource of ten thousand out of the way of fourty thousand plus skykeeps.

Anyhoo, i had no problems with the scene, but i can see how others did.
because they are cold and dead inside.


- Abyss, liked it a lot.

Sorry Abyss but a quick point.
The heavies/marines did not fight in Raruku, the ghost army wiped out the Rebels.
The heavies did not fight in Y'ghatan as far as I remember, only the marines. Although it was not a fight.
Only the marines fought in the Lether campaign (although the heavies may have fought in the landing from the ships in the capital)


The heavies are somewhat experianced but are NOT combat elites in the manner that Dujek's army was.
Although actually, I am ok with them only slowing down the KCNR as they did, as long as they did not beat them.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 November 2009 - 03:31 PM

[Clip]

blackzoid, on 28 November 2009 - 03:30 PM, said:

Sorry Abyss but a quick point.
The heavies/marines did not fight in Raruku, the ghost army wiped out the Rebels.
The heavies did not fight in Y'ghatan as far as I remember, only the marines. Although it was not a fight.
Only the marines fought in the Lether campaign (although the heavies may have fought in the landing from the ships in the capital)


The heavies are somewhat experianced but are NOT combat elites in the manner that Dujek's army was.
Although actually, I am ok with them only slowing down the KCNR as they did, as long as they did not beat them.

The heavies DID fight in Y'Ghatan, they went in with the marines, a lot of them died, but there were a few in the group that tunneled out. Also, after Y'ghatan the marines and heavies, who had suffered disproportionately compared to the mediums, were mixed up, marine squads contained heavies as well.

Although I really enjoyed DoD, I can understand those who find rereading it hard, after all, it is only one half of a book. My advice would be wait to tCG comes out and reread it together with DoD as one book.

It seems the main problem here is the introduction of new viewpoints amongst the marines, and how people would have preferred to stick with those already known. I see the introduction of the new POVs as a plot device. SE probably thought that most readers would get to like the new POVs as much as the older ones, and so would feel their, frankly unnecessary and pointless deaths, more.

I mean, tMBotF is a tragedy, set in a fantasy world.

This post has been edited by Clip: 28 November 2009 - 11:09 PM