[luap]

Fiddler mentions somewhere in the book that he was an apprentice mason. Could he have known whiskeyjack before they joined the army and if so what age would that make fid?

This post has been edited by luap: 17 November 2009 - 12:37 PM

[Kanubis]

It's unlikely they knew eachother since in the flashback to Raraku where they catch up with Quick Ben for the first time, Whiskeyjack calls up Fiddler and from the dialogue does not appear to know him.

[luap]

luap, on 17 November 2009 - 02:12 PM, said:

thanks for that

But does he not remember having dunsparrow on his knees playing when she was a child? This seems to me to be before Raraku?

[Ozymandiac]

In 'The Bonehunters', Fiddler talks to Kalam about Dunsparrow:

Spoiler

Quote

All right. She was born to a dead woman – Whiskeyjack's stepmother, she died that morning, and the baby – Dunsparrow – well, she was long in coming out, she should have died inside, if you know what I mean. That's why the town elders gave her up to the temple, to Hood's own. The father was already dead, killed outside Quon, and Whiskeyjack, well, he was finishing his prenticeship. We was young then. So me and him, we had to break in and steal her back, but she'd already been consecrated, blessed in Hood's name – so we took its power away by talking about it, ha ha, making light and all that, and she grew up normal enough. More or less. Sort of...' He trailed away, refused to meet the two sets of staring eyes, then scratched at his singed face. 'We need us a Deck of Dragons, I think...'

Apparently, they knew eachother when Whiskeyjack was still busy with being an apprentice mason. It also seems likely they were more or less of the same age, "we was young then"

On the other hand, in Memories of Ice (this is the flashback where the Bridgeburners are hunting down Quick Ben in Raraku):

Spoiler

Quote

A soldier chuckled behind Whiskeyjack.
'Will that funny man come forward, please,' the commander called out without turning.
A rider joined him. Thin, young, an ornate, oversized Seven Cities helmet on his head. 'Sir'.' the soldier said.
Whiskeyjack stared at him. 'Gods, man, lose that helm - you'll cook your brains. And the fiddle - the damned thing's broken anyway.'
'The helmet's lined with cold-sand, sir.'
'With what?'
'Cold-sand. Looks like shaved filings, sir, but you could throw a handful into a fire and it won't get hot. Strangest thing, sir.'
The commander's eyes narrowed on the helmet. 'By the Abyss, the Holy Protector wore that!'
The man nodded solemnly. 'And when Dassem's sword clipped it, it went flying, sir. Right into my arms.'
'And the fiddle followed?'
The soldier's eyes thinned suspiciously. 'No, sir. The fiddle's mine. Bought it in Malaz City, planned on learning how to play it.'

This leads to an odd conclusion: if they met in Raraku, then the whole Dunsparrow-thing occured later. This means that Whiskeyjack was busy being an apprentice mason áfter he's fought in Seven Cities as sergeant of a unit that has become famous by then. This seems unlikely to me..
Either Whiskeyjack thinks it's very important to finish school, or it is another timeline screwup.

[champ]

Ozymandiac, on 17 November 2009 - 03:21 PM, said:

In 'The Bonehunters', Fiddler talks to Kalam about Dunsparrow:

Quote

All right. She was born to a dead woman – Whiskeyjack's stepmother, she died that morning, and the baby – Dunsparrow – well, she was long in coming out, she should have died inside, if you know what I mean. That's why the town elders gave her up to the temple, to Hood's own. The father was already dead, killed outside Quon, and Whiskeyjack, well, he was finishing his prenticeship. We was young then. So me and him, we had to break in and steal her back, but she'd already been consecrated, blessed in Hood's name – so we took its power away by talking about it, ha ha, making light and all that, and she grew up normal enough. More or less. Sort of...' He trailed away, refused to meet the two sets of staring eyes, then scratched at his singed face. 'We need us a Deck of Dragons, I think...'

Apparently, they knew eachother when Whiskeyjack was still busy with being an apprentice mason. It also seems likely they were more or less of the same age, "we was young then"

On the other hand, in Memories of Ice (this is the flashback where the Bridgeburners are hunting down Quick Ben in Raraku):

Quote

A soldier chuckled behind Whiskeyjack.
'Will that funny man come forward, please,' the commander called out without turning.
A rider joined him. Thin, young, an ornate, oversized Seven Cities helmet on his head. 'Sir'.' the soldier said.
Whiskeyjack stared at him. 'Gods, man, lose that helm - you'll cook your brains. And the fiddle - the damned thing's broken anyway.'
'The helmet's lined with cold-sand, sir.'
'With what?'
'Cold-sand. Looks like shaved filings, sir, but you could throw a handful into a fire and it won't get hot. Strangest thing, sir.'
The commander's eyes narrowed on the helmet. 'By the Abyss, the Holy Protector wore that!'
The man nodded solemnly. 'And when Dassem's sword clipped it, it went flying, sir. Right into my arms.'
'And the fiddle followed?'
The soldier's eyes thinned suspiciously. 'No, sir. The fiddle's mine. Bought it in Malaz City, planned on learning how to play it.'

This leads to an odd conclusion: if they met in Raraku, then the whole Dunsparrow-thing occured later. This means that Whiskeyjack was busy being an apprentice mason áfter he's fought in Seven Cities as sergeant of a unit that has become famous by then. This seems unlikely to me..
Either Whiskeyjack thinks it's very important to finish school, or it is another timeline screwup.

the quote there though never states that they dont know each other, may just be playing soldier and been all serious for the rest of the company... or could be a time line mess up!

This post has been edited by Hetan: 19 November 2009 - 09:34 AM
Reason for edit: No need for spoiler tags for these two quotes

[luap]

Thats what i was looking for but earlier in the book says that fiddler was an apprentice mason so maybe this is how they met. Also maybe whiskeyjack was being professional and all that in front of the ranks. They were a collection of squads and maybe he just wanted to keep them all in check and not show favourtism to his own squad.

[Kanubis]

Ozymandiac, on 17 November 2009 - 03:21 PM, said:

In 'The Bonehunters', Fiddler talks to Kalam about Dunsparrow:

Quote

All right. She was born to a dead woman – Whiskeyjack's stepmother, she died that morning, and the baby – Dunsparrow – well, she was long in coming out, she should have died inside, if you know what I mean. That's why the town elders gave her up to the temple, to Hood's own. The father was already dead, killed outside Quon, and Whiskeyjack, well, he was finishing his prenticeship. We was young then. So me and him, we had to break in and steal her back, but she'd already been consecrated, blessed in Hood's name – so we took its power away by talking about it, ha ha, making light and all that, and she grew up normal enough. More or less. Sort of...' He trailed away, refused to meet the two sets of staring eyes, then scratched at his singed face. 'We need us a Deck of Dragons, I think...'

Apparently, they knew eachother when Whiskeyjack was still busy with being an apprentice mason. It also seems likely they were more or less of the same age, "we was young then"

On the other hand, in Memories of Ice (this is the flashback where the Bridgeburners are hunting down Quick Ben in Raraku):

Quote

A soldier chuckled behind Whiskeyjack.
'Will that funny man come forward, please,' the commander called out without turning.
A rider joined him. Thin, young, an ornate, oversized Seven Cities helmet on his head. 'Sir'.' the soldier said.
Whiskeyjack stared at him. 'Gods, man, lose that helm - you'll cook your brains. And the fiddle - the damned thing's broken anyway.'
'The helmet's lined with cold-sand, sir.'
'With what?'
'Cold-sand. Looks like shaved filings, sir, but you could throw a handful into a fire and it won't get hot. Strangest thing, sir.'
The commander's eyes narrowed on the helmet. 'By the Abyss, the Holy Protector wore that!'
The man nodded solemnly. 'And when Dassem's sword clipped it, it went flying, sir. Right into my arms.'
'And the fiddle followed?'
The soldier's eyes thinned suspiciously. 'No, sir. The fiddle's mine. Bought it in Malaz City, planned on learning how to play it.'

This leads to an odd conclusion: if they met in Raraku, then the whole Dunsparrow-thing occured later. This means that Whiskeyjack was busy being an apprentice mason áfter he's fought in Seven Cities as sergeant of a unit that has become famous by then. This seems unlikely to me..
Either Whiskeyjack thinks it's very important to finish school, or it is another timeline screwup.

Oh nice, I forgot the Dunsparrow bit (probably because I've reread MoI but haven't got to tBH again yet!)

Hmm, tricky!

[Ozymandiac]

When I look at the second quote, from Memories of Ice, it is indeed possible that might have known each other already. The whole quote is:

Quote

'Will that funny man come forward, please,' the commander called out without turning.
A rider joined him. Thin, young, an ornate, oversized Seven Cities helmet on his head. 'Sir'.' the soldier said.
Whiskeyjack stared at him. 'Gods, man, lose that helm - you'll cook your brains. And the fiddle - the damned thing's broken anyway.'
'The helmet's lined with cold-sand, sir.'
'With what?'
'Cold-sand. Looks like shaved filings, sir, but you could throw a handful into a fire and it won't get hot. Strangest thing, sir.'
The commander's eyes narrowed on the helmet. 'By the Abyss, the Holy Protector wore that!'
The man nodded solemnly. 'And when Dassem's sword clipped it, it went flying, sir. Right into my arms.'
'And the fiddle followed?'
The soldier's eyes thinned suspiciously. 'No, sir. The fiddle's mine. Bought it in Malaz City, planned on learning how to play it.'
'So who put a fist through it, soldier?'
'That would be Hedge, sir - that man over there beside Picker.'
'He can't play the damn thing!' the soldier in question shouted over.
'Well I can't now, can I? It's broke. But once the war's done I'll get it fixed, won't I?'
Whiskeyjack sighed. 'Return to your position, sir Fiddler, and not another sound from you, understood?'
'One thing, sir. I got a bad feeling… about… about all of this.'
'You're not alone in that, soldier.'
'Well, uh, it's just that—'
'Commander!' the soldier named Hedge called out, nudging his mount forward. 'The lad's hunches, sir, they ain't missed yet. He told
Sergeant Nubber not to drink from that jug, but Nubber did anyway, and now he's dead, sir.'
'Poisoned?'
'No, sir. A dead lizard. Got stuck in his throat. Nubber choked to death on a dead lizard! Hey, Fiddler - a good name, that. Fiddler. Hah!'
'Gods,' Whiskeyjack breathed. 'Enough.' He faced Kalam again. 'Ride on.'

I personally think it's quite unlikely they would have this conversation if they already knew each other. Whiskeyjack is unaware of Fiddler's instincts and didn't know Fiddler bought a fiddle in Malaz City - the place they embarked.

This post has been edited by Ozymandiac: 17 November 2009 - 03:36 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

They definitely knew each other before joining the army. There's two possible explanations for the Raraku scene. One, Whiskeyjack was just being uber-professional (it was probably one of the first commands he had been given) and didn't want to show favoritism since all the soldiers had just been thrown together to create a new unit. Two, Fiddler was wearing a huge metal helmet filled with some strange kind of magical sand, Whiskeyjack couldn't see his face, or make out his voice correctly. Or it could be a combination of the two where Whiskeyjack didn't realize who it was at first (his back was turned) and when he realized who it was he still decided to be a badass to him.

[Sinisdar Toste]

could be that WJ just didn't want to let on to kalam that he and his soldiers were any closer than complete strangers tossed together after a bunch of units were decimated. thinking on it, WJ and Fid could have been friends up until they enlisted and were then split into different units, finally coming back together when dassem cobbled together the seach party that pursued QB.

edit: in GotM fiddler displays a little more ease with WJ than the others in the squad, a bit more familiarity. it's slight but it could indicate a longer history

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 17 November 2009 - 04:20 PM

[Sindriss]

Well, since it is explicitly stated in BH that they knew each other before the army, I would say that is how it is. Especially since that is the latest book from where the quotes come.

[Soultaken]

Whiskeyjack and Fiddler were probably stringing Kalam along as (if my memory is correct) he had just joined them from the rebellion and they maybe wanted to test his loyalty. I think it was Fiddler itself who figures out that QB was leaving signs for Kalam andleading them on a goose chase. Fid and WJ probably wanted to potray themselves as a bunch of suckers and see what these guys were upto.

This post has been edited by Soultaken: 19 November 2009 - 10:32 AM

[D'rek]

Face it guys, it's just an error and the "acting professional" thing is just our excuse for trying to justify it. Not that there's anything wrong with that... and it is convenient that the conversation *could* be taken that way...

Sinisdar Toste, on 17 November 2009 - 04:18 PM, said:

edit: in GotM fiddler displays a little more ease with WJ than the others in the squad, a bit more familiarity. it's slight but it could indicate a longer history

That'd be because by the time Laseen sends them to Genebackis, Fiddler is an officer (captain perhaps?) under WJ (see GotM prologue)

[Hetan]

Fiddler is listed as a sapper, not an officer, in GotM and nowhere is he referenced as an officer of any kind in that book. Whiskeyjack is sergeant, Kalam is corporal.

He shows long familiarity with Whiskeyjack by leaning close to the man when they are talking to the young Paran on Mocks Hold - that could be because they had already been through the Raraku experience by then of course.

I do however, think it's quite possibly a mistake - it could of course be possible that they both pretended not to know each other before - Fiddler could have been Whiskeyjacks "shaved knuckle" in a limited sense - but I don't think recall any other evidence to prove it at that point in the series.
Fiddler does say in GotM that he was a stone cutter like Whiskeyjack and didn't take to soldiering in the same way, but it's not clear if they learned together, but that is what is implied in Fiddler's later story in BH.

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 19 November 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

Fiddler is listed as a sapper, not an officer, in GotM and nowhere is he referenced as an officer of any kind in that book. Whiskeyjack is sergeant, Kalam is corporal.

He shows long familiarity with Whiskeyjack by leaning close to the man when they are talking to the young Paran on Mocks Hold - that could be because they had already been through the Raraku experience by then of course.

Okay, re-read that part and my bad, he's not directly referenced as an officer. I brought got that impression from when WJ orders him to delegate to Dujek, who has already commanded the BBs (or the army they were part of) by this point and is therefore most definitely a Captain or higher.

Quote

Both soldiers turned, but without hase. The commander said to his companion, 'The new company needs help down there. Send Dujek and a wing, and get some sappers to contain the fires - wouldn't do to have the whole city burn.'

[Harvester]

As a starter I want to say hello to the forums and all the fans. A non-native reader of the English books here, hee-hee.

Okay, I have followed this problem for a while and tried to figure out the timeline. Now, well, I think my brains' melted a bit.
Anyway, let's get this started. I think Fiddler and Whiskeyjack met in Raraku for the very first time. So, what about the Dunsparrow bit? Here's my crazy theory.
I think Whiskeyjack never finished his apprenticeship as a mason until he met Fiddler who definitely was a mason of sorts ;D before he became a soldier.

Quote

Another Bridgeburner, this one with a broken, scorched fiddle strapped to his back, came up to the commander. He was wiry and if anything younger– only a few years older than Ganoes himself, who was twelve. Strange pockmarks covered his face and the backs of his hands, and his armour was a mixture of foreign accoutrements over a threadbare, stained uniform. A shortsword hung in a cracked wooden scabbard at his hip.[...]
"Was born in an alley in Malaz City, learned the stone-cutting trade breaking into barrows up on the plain behind Mock's Hold."

What's also noticable is that Fid appears to be still very young ... 20 by the looks of it? We know, on the other hand, that Raraku happened a while back - the Bridgeburners already have a legendary status. So that's the Raraku spell at work. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that everything Fid remembers in BH happened after Raraku and that WJ became a real mason ... maybe because a certain god was in dire need of one? Maybe because of one of Fid's games? Who knows?


Such problems would normally put me off but with this saga it's very different. I love it.

[T'renn]

But it was also said that WJ's dad had just died fighting in the Army at Quon, that is way before the 7 City campaigns. Between the campaign for Quon Talian domination and the invasion of 7 cities was the Falar Campaign. I think WJ was just very professional in Raraku