[Coldsnap]

Hello All,

Finished another reread of Return of the Crimson Guard and had read Toll the Hounds prior to this. Was wondering mostly about timelines and Dassem's mindset in the two books, with complete acknowledgment that the books are written by two different authors.

So as I understand it, Return occurs chronologically before the events of Toll the Hounds, though correct me if im wrong. At the end of the RCG, It appears that Dassem has realized the futility of his vengeance against Hood, his war against something so inevitable, that even his daughter, much less Ullen (his respected future-malazan general) could not avoid. He seems to honestly give up the maddening quest to exact revenge on Hood. He has this conversation with Hood that is interesting and ends with a type of closure between the two.

But when Toll the Hounds continues the story arc, we see Dassem traveling with Karsa and the witch woman... and it really seems like the conversation with Hood on the battlefield at the end of RCG never happened. He is still hunting Hood, still demands vengeance, and fights Rake just to get to him.

So I am just humbly looking for clarity here about an amazing story arc, with genuine awareness that I could have misinterpreted or misread alot here.

Also, on a side note, in that convo between Hood and Dassem in RCG, I thought it was interesting the way Hood referred to Dassem as Dassembrae, as though he was appearing in the form of an ascendant/God rather than traveling swordsman and ex-general.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Coldsnap, on 11 November 2009 - 12:12 AM, said:

Hello All,

Finished another reread of Return of the Crimson Guard and had read Toll the Hounds prior to this. Was wondering mostly about timelines and Dassem's mindset in the two books, with complete acknowledgment that the books are written by two different authors.

So as I understand it, Return occurs chronologically before the events of Toll the Hounds, though correct me if im wrong. At the end of the RCG, It appears that Dassem has realized the futility of his vengeance against Hood, his war against something so inevitable, that even his daughter, much less Ullen (his respected future-malazan general) could not avoid. He seems to honestly give up the maddening quest to exact revenge on Hood. He has this conversation with Hood that is interesting and ends with a type of closure between the two.

But when Toll the Hounds continues the story arc, we see Dassem traveling with Karsa and the witch woman... and it really seems like the conversation with Hood on the battlefield at the end of RCG never happened. He is still hunting Hood, still demands vengeance, and fights Rake just to get to him.

So I am just humbly looking for clarity here about an amazing story arc, with genuine awareness that I could have misinterpreted or misread alot here.

Also, on a side note, in that convo between Hood and Dassem in RCG, I thought it was interesting the way Hood referred to Dassem as Dassembrae, as though he was appearing in the form of an ascendant/God rather than traveling swordsman and ex-general.

Well Hood addresses him as Dessembrae, because he was appearing in his capacity as the Lord of Tragedy at that time. Not as just normal wandering swordsman Traveller.

And I don't think that scene meant that he thought his vengeance against Hood was futile. You make it sound like he realized he was fighting death, and realized he couldn't win. He really just wanted to go kill Hood, the god of death. Its an important distinction in your question. Though it is definitely worth wondering whether or not he was even capable of doing that, he's an excellent swordsman, and very powerful, but I don't know that Hood would have allowed him to fight that way.

[HoosierDaddy]

Whiskeyjack is correct in his assertion that he addressed him as Dessembrae because of Ullen's tragic demise at the end of the Battle of Li Heng, and Dessembrae was appearing on the scene in his role.

Also, what you hear in Dessembrae's words isn't a capitulation to a hopeless cause (killing Hood), but a reassertion that he didn't question his motive at all. He was without question stating to Hood that nothing was going to shake him away from his goal. He had no questions for the God of Death. There would be no words between them. Just his vengeance.

Thus, his sword (the sword of Rake) would be near unbeatable with such perfect single-mindedness.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yea I know he's got that sword...but still, do people on here think he would have been successful in killing Hood? I mean I know that mage in Jacuruku tried to just drop him into a warren to kill him and he didn't allow that to happen, but this is freakin Hood we're talking about. Possibly the most powerful Jaghut in the series, and a completely ascended god with thousands if not millions of worshippers. I think Dassem is amazing...but I just don't know if he could pull that off.

[HoosierDaddy]

This is TtH forum, thus: Hood gave up his role as a God. He re-entered the realm of mortality, and got Dragnipurred, only to possibly escape that through Dragnipur's destruction. It's possible he's fully mortal after this, and thus able to be slain.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

True, hadn't thought about that. But Dassem didn't know that was going to happen and was still hunting him before that. And even if he did lose his followers, c'mon, its still Hood, an ascendant Jaghut bamf basically. I'm kind of curious if it came to a weapons fight, we've never seen any Jaghut fight hand to hand in the entire series to this point, Gothos has a big sword covered in cobwebs, but we don't see him use it.

Edit: ah crap, as I sent that I remembered the one in the Deadhouse...ignore that last part

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 11 November 2009 - 05:42 AM

[blackzoid]

1: The reason that Dassem was after Hood was not due to his daughter suffering death through natural casues, but becasue Hood claimed her during the latest Chaining of the Crippled God. He used her in some fashion so there are marks and such all over her body. Lady Envy was supposed to be there instead of Dassem's daughter, but since she wasn't, the daughter was used. Thats why he declared vengence against Hood.

2: As to whether Hood would have fought Dassem with a sword or just zapped him from afar, its doubtful that he would have done either. Dassem in his Travellor aspect could age, and all Hood would have to do would be to wait for Dassem to age and die. Unless Dassem doesn't age at all through his Ascendent aspect. In either case, Hood doesn't seem the sword-fighting/fireball throwing type. He probaly would tell the Segulah Second and Baudin to defend him instead.

[Aptorian]

Malazan showdowns, with the exception of a few cases like Pust vs Trohlbarahl and Spite vs Envy, always seem to boil down to physical confrontations, fists and weapons being branded and the ascendants pummeling each other to death... or tripping on a spearbutt and falling down a flight of stairs and breaking their necks... or something.

On top of that Hood is a remarkably honorable God, especially for a possible Jaghut Tyrant. I think Hood respected Dassem, and if it came to it, he would let Dassem face him in a duel and let the one who was the strongest be the victor. But as it was Hood didn't have time to possibly loose a fight to Dassem when there was swords to break and gods to twart.

That said, it's my impression that you could throw moons spawn on fire at Dassem Ultor and if he was holding Vengeance he would just chop it in half, that's how pissed off and insane he was/is, so I don't think Hood could take him out with a bolt of lightning from the sky.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I remeber asking a similiar question and since then I've done some reasoning.
TtH events notwithstanding Hood doesn't have a body( in fact he had to do that complicated ritual to physically appear in Daruhistan) seeing how his is probably sitting on the Throne of Ice. So even Vengeance in the hands of someone with the will of Dassem couldn't really kill him, unless Vengeance is also a soul trapping sword a là Dragnipur

[Aptorian]

I think Vengeance is a "If I hit your spirit form with this blade your great, great grandchildren will still be getting born with a harelip" kind of sword.

[D'rek]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 November 2009 - 05:41 AM, said:

I'm kind of curious if it came to a weapons fight, we've never seen any Jaghut fight hand to hand in the entire series to this point, Gothos has a big sword covered in cobwebs, but we don't see him use it.

Edit: ah crap, as I sent that I remembered the one in the Deadhouse...ignore that last part

Also: Gethol vs Brukhalian in MoI...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

D, on 11 November 2009 - 08:49 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 November 2009 - 05:41 AM, said:

I'm kind of curious if it came to a weapons fight, we've never seen any Jaghut fight hand to hand in the entire series to this point, Gothos has a big sword covered in cobwebs, but we don't see him use it.

Edit: ah crap, as I sent that I remembered the one in the Deadhouse...ignore that last part

Also: Gethol vs Brukhalian in MoI...

Yea but that doesn't end up happening, he gets bitch-slapped by the flat of the sword, and then the bonecasters show up and Hood drags him away

[Ulrik]

From my point of view is Dassem, ascened as Dessembrae, in his restless hunger for satisfaction and wielding Vengeance unstoppable. Former title One of top 5 best swordsman in Wu (Rake, Seguleh, who knows who...) is multiplied by this heritage from Andarist. STnC fears him and at least Kellanved´s powers are purely magical. He can cut literally through anything, spells and curses included. OK, he doesnt show it, but  we can feel it from everyone´s reaction. He is more badass in Hood´s case than Karsa´s stubborness. 

And to Hood´s part...well, we´ve seen many times that Hood is full of compassion and regret and maybe if there was everything prepared for Dragniwar and got his Gateholders, hewill just stay and let execute himself... or draws some fukin-awesome sword with name like Cold Death and make it old way. And get slayed.

My point - we cant see Dassem as mere swordsman anymore. Once member of House of Death, ascendant, all his focus forged into one goal, he is force of nature...breakable only by circumstances like the Darujhistan Duel.

[Inkiper]

I think Dassem is greatest swordsman of MBoF...one -because he killed Rake,two- even Karsa was affraid when he saw rake's and Ultor's fight. Anyway...Hood baceme a living man, but get dragnipurred fast, however dragnipur was broken by Caladan, and if ,after that Draconus came back, why Hood shouldn't?

[champ]

knowledge & wisdom, on 08 January 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

I think Dassem is greatest swordsman of MBoF...one -because he killed Rake,two- even Karsa was affraid when he saw rake's and Ultor's fight. Anyway...Hood baceme a living man, but get dragnipurred fast, however dragnipur was broken by Caladan, and if ,after that Draconus came back, why Hood shouldn't?

you have to think though that in his fight with rake, rake set up his own death, whilst dassem was going hell for leather to kill him... dassem better than rake? i dunno...

[Inkiper]

maybe...yes he did it because of mother darkness and all tiste andii...and offcourse i have forgotten that he defeted seguleh of level 7

[Tyrant]

Ulrik, on 12 November 2009 - 11:05 AM, said:

From my point of view is Dassem, ascened as Dessembrae, in his restless hunger for satisfaction and wielding Vengeance unstoppable. Former title One of top 5 best swordsman in Wu (Rake, Seguleh, who knows who...) is multiplied by this heritage from Andarist. STnC fears him and at least Kellanved´s powers are purely magical. He can cut literally through anything, spells and curses included. OK, he doesnt show it, but we can feel it from everyone´s reaction. He is more badass in Hood´s case than Karsa´s stubborness.

How do you know this? Have you been privy to something no one else has? If an Elder God decided to obliterate him with a wave of sorcery, I'm not sure he'd have a lot of luck hacking away at the encroaching huge fireball, Tiste Andii sword or not....


Out of interest, it appears there's this general consensus that Dassem has two distinct personalities, his mortal 'Traveller' persona and the demi-god 'Dessembrae'... where has this come from? It just seems odd to me and strikes me as a bit of a cop out to half-heartedly explain why Traveller seems a bit more vulnerable in RoTCG than some might have expected from the OMG DASSEM ULTOR SWORD OF THE EMPIRE snippets we got in the early books. Well, Lord of Tragedy or not, he's not infallible. Why can this character and no other apparently flit between these two very different entities, it just doesn't make sense to me...he's either ascendant or he's not.

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 14 January 2010 - 08:20 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

oh travellers an ascendant all right. its just that he is also a god. sometimes however, he doesn't seem to let his godlike aura out to the people around him. sometimes they catch snippets of it, like the edur woman on the southern coast of stratem who basically loses her shit when she looks in his eyes.

then there's that scene near the end of RotCG where hood speaks to him through a severed head. he calls him dessembrae as traveller is "here in that aspect"

traveller is a kind of denier, like anomander rake was to the bluerose, just... not all the time.

though i would agree with you that dassem would have trouble standing in the face of an elder gods sorcery, i don't think he would stand in it's face. he would gather all his power and charge at it. wielding vengeance, with his will absolute and his divine power as the lord of tragedy awakened, he would stand a fighting chance.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I agree Vengeance is a badass sword, but is everyone forgetting how easily a few K'risnan took down Andarist? I'm agreed that Traveler is stronger than Andarist, and has a more focused will. In that same token however, Hood is a crapload more powerful than a few Tiste Edur mages.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the k'risnan took out an old man who had already cut through a score or more of edur warriors. he was wiped.