[Ben Adephon Delat]

So I read Reaper's Gale and I read Hedge's explanation of magic to Sunrise [or was it the alchemist] and I've become somewhat confused. Now I assumed outside of unusual circumstances like Quick Ben a mage could only use one warren. Beak used them all and he was a normal magician in the sense of having no unusual ancestry or having performed any rituals/taboo magics. As such am I to assume an ordinary/weak mage can only use one warren but with skill/talent a mage can use more than one. Alternatively can any mage use any warren but they stick to one due to being proficient or prefering said one. Thus the more experienced they become the more likely they are to start familiarising themselves with the other warrens

[Silencer]

In essence, any mage can use any warren, and however many warrens one wishes.

That being said, most don't. First of all, a person has an 'affinity' for a warren - that's usually how they find out they're a mage. For Telas it might be staring at a fire one day and making the flames move, as an example. They're particularly 'attuned' to a certain warren. In order to use a different warren, they have to know how to access it - it doesn't come naturally, like their own warren - and they then have to put effort into learning the 'ins and outs' of using that warren.
Think of them like instruments, and you'll have an example of what this means. They still have an easier time of learning a warren than a random, otherwise magic-less citizen, but it's harder than their own, and takes away from their study time for their natural warren.

Beak, however, was not normal at all. He had a natural aptitude for magic due to the circumstances surrounding his youth, and the fact that he was exposed to so many warrens back then.
Bottle can use most warrens, however he is not good with them - he prefers spirit- and earth-based magic.

We also see that during the trip to Letheras, there was a lot of time spent teaching all squad mages in the marines cantrips from Meanas and Mockra, eventually making them all somewhat proficient at a basic level with those warrens.

Tayschrenn, too, can access more than one warren, it is supposed - Telas is his primary, but it is presumed he can also access Thyr and perhaps one other. Though that's all speculation, I believe.

Hope that helps.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

So the hullabaloo over Quick and Beak isn't the ability to use multiple warrens but to use them simultaneously

[Silencer]

No, being able to use many still makes them fairly special - it takes effort, as I said, and it's something that is impressive. The fact that they can use them well is even more impressive.
The fact that Quick Ben can skilfully use 6 warrens at a time, weaving them together and/or using them individually to their various strengths is what makes him REALLY awesome, to the point where he is basically unique.
The ability of Beak to use all the known warrens is impressive, too, but he does have certain circumstances that...limit his efficacy.

Other than that, I'd definitely say that while using multiple warrens is possible for everyone, it's much like saying any warrior can train to use dual swords - even the ability to use one in your off-hand is impressive, because it takes literally years to train the dexterity and strength, as well as the hand-eye co-ordination in order to use it effectively.
But to be able to use that off-hand weapon to the same skill level as your traditional hand is a feat of amazing proportions. To be able to use a weapon in both hands simultaneously to the same proficiency as someone using a weapon in their normal hand, when you're using, say, a two-headed axe and a fencing rapier....THAT is a point of singular skill.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

I see that's cleared it up for me.

[Abyss]

a point or two to add...

It's worth noting that various mages can do the same things with different warrens, and that arguably, certain warrens are so similar as to be almost the same...
The obvious example is the Meanas/Rashan twosome... shadow/illusion and darkness, but more or less the same in effect. Then there's Thyr, 'light', but by definition the ability to deal in shadow requires light and darkness, and so on... and then Mokra... which allows one to mess with the mind, which involves, amongst other things, illusion.

Supposedly five different gods at various times used Tennes, all to different effect.

Tayshrenn uses aral gamelain, the demon summoning/binding warren, which has no obvious link to his High Telas fire warren. And he concels himself behind an illusion for most of MoI. Meanas, or a manipulation of Thyr/light that follows from 'fire'.

Kulp was for all intents and purposes only Meanas, albeit talented, but he was able to use it as a sheild against a sandstorm, and then there was the thing he did to close the rift on the Silanda.

Mallet only ever had denul, but Brood was High Denul and Burn's warren and apparently tennes just for good measure.

All of which is to say there are a lot of variations of how various warrens cross over in use, and the specific individuals is almost always the deciding factor.

- Abyss, has a warren zevon song stuck in his head.

[Silencer]

Ah, well, Abyss, the Meanas/Rashan cross-over is somewhat explained in one of the smaller excerpts from chapter starts:

Rashan is not True Darkness, such as Kurald Galain, but it is rather a darkness which is THERE. It has presence, while Kurald Galain is an absence of light.
Meanas is shadow, but it is created by the interplay of light and dark, rather than forcefully imposing itself like Rashan.

I'll have to dig up the quote, it was quite good...mind you, I think it was that one by 'the mad' or something. XD

[Kanubis]

Silencer, on 09 November 2009 - 04:50 AM, said:

Other than that, I'd definitely say that while using multiple warrens is possible for everyone, it's much like saying any warrior can train to use dual swords - even the ability to use one in your off-hand is impressive, because it takes literally years to train the dexterity and strength, as well as the hand-eye co-ordination in order to use it effectively.

I think you need to take this analogy to its ultimate conclusion and point out that if you're really not up to the task, you could quite easily accidently stab yourself in the face with the offhand... from what I recall a lack of skill doesn't simply make it too hard to open multiple warrens, it's also damn dangerous if you're not up to the task.

[Abyss]

Silencer, on 09 November 2009 - 05:40 AM, said:

Ah, well, Abyss, the Meanas/Rashan cross-over is somewhat explained in one of the smaller excerpts from chapter starts:

Rashan is not True Darkness, such as Kurald Galain, but it is rather a darkness which is THERE. It has presence, while Kurald Galain is an absence of light.
Meanas is shadow, but it is created by the interplay of light and dark, rather than forcefully imposing itself like Rashan.

I'll have to dig up the quote, it was quite good...mind you, I think it was that one by 'the mad' or something. XD

Not the point i was making. The point is that there is overlap between many warrens, sometimes subtle, sometimes overt, and the number of warrens a mage can use can be affected by which warrens he can use, so to speak. A Meanas squad mage is more like to have some small elements of Rashan, Thyr and/or Mokra than one who uses Ruse. But either of them could conjure a concealing fog.

The relationship between the Elder Warrens and the 'later' or new warrens (and Holds, just for good measure) is a whole other thing, and even there there is overlap.

And also, as much as those chapter openers can be informative, they can also be deliberately deceptive.

Kanubis, on 09 November 2009 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think you need to take this analogy to its ultimate conclusion and point out that if you're really not up to the task, you could quite easily accidently stab yourself in the face with the offhand... from what I recall a lack of skill doesn't simply make it too hard to open multiple warrens, it's also damn dangerous if you're not up to the task.

Agreement-rep delivered.

Plus, just for good measure, external factors like the CG's poisoning, the whims or works of gods who use a given warren, proximity to otataral, dead zones or other more powerful players, can all affect the outcome.

- Abyss, blames the player AND the game...

[Torrud Segul]

Ebron was Meanas I'm pretty sure? but he restrained Karsa with a "shaping of Ruse" I dont think the human warren of shadow and the warren of the sea would overlap too much?

[Hetan]

Torrud Segul, on 09 November 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

Ebron was Meanas I'm pretty sure? but he restrained Karsa with a "shaping of Ruse" I dont think the human warren of shadow and the warren of the sea would overlap too much?

In HoC, Ebron was a mage of Ruse.
It has been mentioned a time or two that the warren of Ruse has flavours of Khurald Galain, but then again I expect it would do as K'rul's blood is aspected of both KG and SD.

[Abyss]

To clarify the above, a Meanas aspected fog would be an illusion, while a Ruse aspected fog would be a mist like one might find on the water. Same effect, two different ways.

Plus there are things various mages do that seemingly have nothing directly to do with their warren's aspect...

In DG Kulp was Meanas but used his warren to sheild himself from a sandstorm. No illusion there.

Pearl was a half Andii Claw. We know he had Mokra because he uses it in DG. Arguably being part Andii he might have access to KG. But in HoC he makes a floating ball for him and Lostara, and conjures light.

...nothing to do with their warrens unless you think creatively... a gate to Meanas wrapped around Kulp would send the sand elsewhere. A solid construct of 'darkness' would serve as transport. 'Light' is just the absence of darkness from a space. Etc etc.

Corlo in MT comments on some of the limitations of some warrens. He can't use Mokra to travel, and against the Pack and the Teblor Gods he can only hang back and confuse them. But he can also fry the brainz of human soldiers.


- Abyss, warren out.

[Venerus]

Abyss, on 09 November 2009 - 05:21 PM, said:

To clarify the above, a Meanas aspected fog would be an illusion, while a Ruse aspected fog would be a mist like one might find on the water. Same effect, two different ways.

Plus there are things various mages do that seemingly have nothing directly to do with their warren's aspect...

In DG Kulp was Meanas but used his warren to sheild himself from a sandstorm. No illusion there.

Pearl was a half Andii Claw. We know he had Mokra because he uses it in DG. Arguably being part Andii he might have access to KG. But in HoC he makes a floating ball for him and Lostara, and conjures light.

...nothing to do with their warrens unless you think creatively... a gate to Meanas wrapped around Kulp would send the sand elsewhere. A solid construct of 'darkness' would serve as transport. 'Light' is just the absence of darkness from a space. Etc etc.

Corlo in MT comments on some of the limitations of some warrens. He can't use Mokra to travel, and against the Pack and the Teblor Gods he can only hang back and confuse them. But he can also fry the brainz of human soldiers.


- Abyss, warren out.

It's also mentioned a few times that Mokra is accessible/most second nature to/by all humans (or sentient beings?). Hm, I wonder if Mokra is like the "racial" warren of having language.

[Silencer]

Pearl also mentions that he can use Mockra to cut into another warren to use to get away from Apsalar, right before he dies.

The Imperial Warren seems open to anyone who knows how, but doesn't seem to confer any abilities. It's all confuzzling. XD

[HoosierDaddy]

Because the "Imperial warren" isn't really magical. It's just a dead realm used for transportation. There isn't an "aspect" to that warren.

[Silencer]

Indeed. It's still a path in K'rul's blood, though. We even speculated that it was not originally dead, either, remember. It may even have been the K'chain warren, in which case it should have an aspect.

We just don't know enough, really. But that's the joy of the series. ^^

[Ben Adephon Delat]

So basically when a magician open his warren they have one or more of the following options
~ they do whatever they want with the power they draw
~ they do whatever they want but within the constraints of the warren e.g. Mokra affecting nothing but the mind
~ they are limited to the above unless they are exceptionally skilled or powerful

[Abyss]

Silencer, on 10 November 2009 - 03:38 AM, said:

Indeed. It's still a path in K'rul's blood, though. We even speculated that it was not originally dead, either, remember. It may even have been the K'chain warren, in which case it should have an aspect.

We just don't know enough, really. But that's the joy of the series. ^^

The Impy warren is where Krul shoved the Kallorian Empire after Kallor ash'd it. Whether the space existed before Krul did that or he made it himself, it was not part of the shaping ritual he did with the dragons that led to the 'modern' warrens.

But in any event, not all warrens are power sources and not all warrens were created by Krul.

Ben Adephon Delat, on 10 November 2009 - 12:43 PM, said:

So basically when a magician open his warren they have one or more of the following options
~ they do whatever they want with the power they draw
~ they do whatever they want but within the constraints of the warren e.g. Mokra affecting nothing but the mind
~ they are limited to the above unless they are exceptionally skilled or powerful

More or less. I don't think there is any one warren that can do 'anything'. By example, no matter how talented a practicioner, i don't think Denul or Mokra can make her fly.


- Abyss, ...notes that some of those trippy toads from TB, however, can make you feel like flying...