[High_Thyr_Mage]

I am new to this forum and have just finished The Bonehunters. I have been poking around in the spoilers, because I keep asking myself the same question...where is Silverfox?

I gather from reading a few posts on the subject that many of you feel her story arc is essentially over. The thought of this bothers me a great deal, since she is one of my favorite characters. To me, it is unfathomable that Erikson could abandon such an interesting character, especially after going to such great lengths to develop the circumstances of her creation, her alleged grand destiny, and the foretelling of her raw power. Let’s face it, she is a sci-fi/fantasy lovers dream…a powerful, tortured, and misunderstood magical being, that one would assume is destined to (help) save the world. It makes you wonder, why create such a character at all, if you intended on abandoning so early in the series? My personal belief is that it was a huge mistake to leave her out of the books that followed Memories of Ice, and that it will be an even bigger mistake to leave her out of the final novel in this series (if that is what he intends to do). I began to notice in Bonehunters that Erikson seems to have fallen into the same trap that many epic fantasy authors do; that is, creating so many characters that it becomes virtually impossible to appropriately develop and tie up their individual storylines, essentially leaving a bunch of loose ends and an unsatisfying resolution.

If any other Silverfox fans out there can give me some shred of hope that we will see more of her in the finale, I would welcome your comments. At this point, I am on the fence about whether it is worth it to continue reading the series if he cannot adequately develop the characters he has created. I find myself at the same crossroads that I did with Robert Jordan’s last Wheel of Time installment, Knife of Dreams, which I ended up abandoning altogether.

[MTS]

Silverfox won't be in the last book, I can almost guarantee you that. What she will be in though, is one of Ian Cameron Esslemont's books, which will be focused on Assail, the continent that the T'lan Imass are heading towards at the end of MoI. SE didn't just create her and then abandon her story, not by a long shot. You'll just have to wait a long while until you see her.

As for abandoning the series, don't be an idiot. When all the books are finished, then you could probably make that judgment, but I wouldn't completely give up on a great author because he doesn't resolve character arcs in quite the way you want him to. It's all about being patient. There are still many books left to go in this universe, and the main sequence is but one part of that collection.

[Hetan]

The story of SIlverfox is not the main series arc and I have to say that if you're worried about the loss of a character from the series, favourite or not, then you should be prepared for worse to come. It's not a happy happy series of books, but a snapshot through history of a series of events in which certain characters appear and then disappear as they touch on that history and their story becomes a sideline to the main events.

As Mappo TS has said above, her story will more than likely continue in another series of books, but in the meantime you have another five books in this great series to continue and if you don't find other, even more awesome characters than Silverfox, I will eat my hat.

Also I can understand you abandoning the WoT series - did that myself, but I hear the latest issue is pretty good, so I shall certainly pick that one up. After all if one has invested that much time, it's surely worth seeing it to the end? Unless it's GRRM of course but that's a personal thing

[Ulrik]

Leaving series? After BH? Dont be fool man!
Erikson is in creepy style able to finish all his main characters, but there is one important thing and that is cooperation with Esselmont. Return of the Crimson Guard proved that Esselmont wont have only retrospective novels, but also events with HUGE importance for whole saga. And Silverfox due to all clues went under Esselmonts protection, so you wont lose her, just you´ll read about her from co-creator of this universe (and, to be honest, not so good writer as SE...but...who can contest him? ). Oh man, I cant believe you will be able to leave story after BH! There is Rhulad! Karsa! Convergence! HOW CAN YOU????

[blackzoid]

I'm not a major Silverfox fan. She rates a "meh" from me.
He main function is as a link to the T'lan Imass. Thats all.
I didn't like her keeping of the T'lan Ay at heel at all.


And the more we learn about the ancient past, the more we find out that Silverfox was wrong
and Kallor was right. She had a simplistic black and white view of things that was at odds
with what really happened.

[High_Thyr_Mage]

Thanks to everyone for your input (and, Mappo, I am most certainly not and idiot). For me, the decision of whether to continue purchasing and reading epic fantasy novels is based on prior installments, and also whether or not I feel comfortable with where the series is going -- it's not worth my time if I don't. Unfortunately, for me, all signs are pointing to a serious "Detour" from the Malazan books for the foreseeable future.



I measure a good epic sci-fi/fantasy author on several key elements, and one of the most important is his/her ability to weave interesting characters in an out of the series seamlessly, tying up all the loose ends before the series concludes. Personally, I see a huge hole regarding Silverfox -- other characters too, but I brought her up specifically, so I will stick with this example. It seems that many epic fantasy authors make the huge mistake of getting bored with the characters they create; and so, rather than resolve the story, they conveniently forget about the characters altogether and move on to new ones. This can create a bit of a monster for the author, as was the case with Jordan and seems to be for Erikson, when so many new characters are created with each additional book that there is no possible way to resolve it all. He can certainly say that it was never part of his "vision" to tie everything up neatly, but that excuse is too convenient for me.



The character of Silverfox is a perfect example of this type of character abandonment. In GotM, her creation was a fantastic idea, i.e. soul shifting and the creation of an amalgamation of entities within one body – including an elder god. Not to mention the love story that ensued between Paran and Tattersail, which we all assumed would go somewhere. Then in MoI, Silverfox's character was finally developed, not through the POV of Silverfox herself, but rather through the eyes of others -- each of them predicting in some way that she was destined for something big. You can't tell me, with all of the back story and foreshadowing, that he didn’t originally have grand ideas for her character.



I assumed Erikson would pick the story back up at the right time; however, he didn't. I'm inclined to believe he just didn't know what to do with her story, and conveniently gave up for the pursuit of creating, and only partially developing, even more characters. What a great consolation, though, that he left the scraps for his partner to pick up in an ancillary spin-off. Boo!! Sorry, that doesn't fly with a discerning reader like me.



So, this is why I find myself in the same place again. I will continue my quest to find a sci-fi/fantasy author that can live up to the legacies of Tolkien and Herbert, but Erikson obviously ain't gonna cut it!

[Kanubis]

The thing is, we can surely be fairly sure that at the time he wrote MoI, Erikson knew the following:

1) The Imass and thus Silverfox would be trotting off to Assail (this is clear enough I think?)
2) The story arc for nine cental books would not go to Assail.

Silverfox's story deserves greater treatment than to be shoe-horned in to the Crippled God story arc. He's not ignoring her, he's going to let ICE do her story justice and I assume he has planned as much for a long time.

Plus her storyline is not ignored in the later books, the Imass story is featured a lot and Silverfox's summoning of them is referenced plenty of times.

Erikson and Esselmont created a vast world, and the shear expansive extent of the story is intentional. It's something I love and I think it's unfair to consider a weakness in the writing. Something that won't appeal to everyone, but from the interviews I've read he never set out to pander to everyone for the sake of being popular.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 High_Thyr_Mage, on 02 November 2009 - 11:03 PM, said:

I assumed Erikson would pick the story back up at the right time; however, he didn't. I'm inclined to believe he just didn't know what to do with her story, and conveniently gave up for the pursuit of creating, and only partially developing, even more characters. What a great consolation, though, that he left the scraps for his partner to pick up in an ancillary spin-off. Boo!! Sorry, that doesn't fly with a discerning reader like me.

however much you feel inclined to believe that SE didn't know how to finish silverfox's story, that is not the case. fact of the matter is, SE and ICE co-created this world. "ancillary spin-off" Boo! i say to that, ICE may not be the writer that SE is but his plot lines are just as important. so silverfox isn't involved in the main series events after MoI, that doesn't mean he just tossed her over to his "to do" list. her story just no longer involves the main conflict of the MBotF, that of resolving the CG situation.

like Kanubis said, Erikson has stated that he is not going to pander in order to be popular. he and ICE have been building this world since before i was born (don't know about you) and i feel confident in my commitment to the grandeur of their vision.

in SE we trust

[High_Thyr_Mage]

I understand what you are saying, Kanubis. However, it doesn't make sense to me that an author would introduce a major character and a story arc, if he intended to hand off to someone else to finish in a separate series of books. That is like one painter saying to another, "hey, I have this painting I started, do you mind finishing it for me?" I don't know of any artist with integrity that would want to take that on, because s/he would merely be finishing and interpreting someone else's vision. I realize that Mr. Esslemont has written about characters that have appeared in the main series, but from my understanding those have been vignettes and side stories that not critical to the main story arc. This is similar to what Brian Herbert has done with the continuation of the the Dune novels -- Brian's books explain the history and side plots from the original series, but are not critical to understanding the world Frank Herbert created in the 6 books he wrote (and yes, I do know that Brian Herbert finished Chaperhouse Dune after his father’s death…but that is an entirely different situation). In this case Erikson is taking a fairly major character that he created, and saying "I don't know where to go with this, and I'm not sure I want to deal with it anymore...can you finish it for me?" So I guess I am saying that there is no precedence for this, and in my mind it just doesn't make good sense. I liked Erikson's voice, his narration style (more so in the earlier books), and his development of the character -- it does not do the story justice to simply hand it off when you are done with it.

Look, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, and basically dissing the very authors that this forum was designed to praise. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it is obvoius that mine differs greatly from eveyone else here. On that note, I will simply say goodbye, and I enjoyed reading your comments and the discussion that errupted from it all. I am resolved to leave this series behind, and that decision makes me content. Thanks!

[Sinisdar Toste]

well friend if we cant convince you i guess all we can do is feel sorry for all that you're missing.

its a shame that silverfox, of all people, was the one loss that threw you off of the next 7 books

[HoosierDaddy]

Seriously, just leave the series now. Silverfox is not the last character this happens to in this Arc of books (assumingly, we can't know for sure but, as Hetan said "I'd eat my hat" if there weren't other characters like this. You who have read through DoD know the people I'm talking about.

The difference between this and other series is the scope of the universe Erikson has created. Would you rather a sloppy ending to Silverfox, "And they lived happily ever after", or rather read about a full-scale T'lan war on Assail when Erikson or Esslemont (it's a shared universe too, big enough for more than one author) can give it it's just due.

[Powder]

 High_Thyr_Mage, on 03 November 2009 - 03:25 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying, Kanubis. However, it doesn't make sense to me that an author would introduce a major character and a story arc, if he intended to hand off to someone else to finish in a separate series of books. That is like one painter saying to another, "hey, I have this painting I started, do you mind finishing it for me?" I don't know of any artist with integrity that would want to take that on, because s/he would merely be finishing and interpreting someone else's vision. I realize that Mr. Esslemont has written about characters that have appeared in the main series, but from my understanding those have been vignettes and side stories that not critical to the main story arc. This is similar to what Brian Herbert has done with the continuation of the the Dune novels -- Brian's books explain the history and side plots from the original series, but are not critical to understanding the world Frank Herbert created in the 6 books he wrote (and yes, I do know that Brian Herbert finished Chaperhouse Dune after his father's death…but that is an entirely different situation). In this case Erikson is taking a fairly major character that he created, and saying "I don't know where to go with this, and I'm not sure I want to deal with it anymore...can you finish it for me?" So I guess I am saying that there is no precedence for this, and in my mind it just doesn't make good sense. I liked Erikson's voice, his narration style (more so in the earlier books), and his development of the character -- it does not do the story justice to simply hand it off when you are done with it.

Look, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, and basically dissing the very authors that this forum was designed to praise. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it is obvoius that mine differs greatly from eveyone else here. On that note, I will simply say goodbye, and I enjoyed reading your comments and the discussion that errupted from it all. I am resolved to leave this series behind, and that decision makes me content. Thanks!

Its comments like these that make me facepalm... hard...

[blackzoid]

"I don't know of any artist with integrity that would want to take that on, because s/he would merely be finishing and interpreting someone else's vision. I realize that Mr. Esslemont has written about characters that have appeared in the main series, but from my understanding those have been vignettes and side stories that not critical to the main story arc. This is similar to what Brian Herbert has done with the continuation of the the Dune novels -- Brian's books explain the history and side plots from the original series, but are not critical to understanding the world Frank Herbert created in the 6 books he wrote (and yes, I do know that Brian Herbert finished Chaperhouse Dune after his father's death…but that is an entirely different situation)"




This is a huge knock against ICE. An unwarrented attack on him. Saying he has no integrity.

The comparison you use is nothing at all similar to this situation, Brian Herbert did not co-develop the Dune universe with his father, ICE co-created the world of Malaz with SE. He isn't taking someone elses vision and rewriting them, he developed the world in conjunction with Erikson. Many of the characters you liked to read about were devloped by ICE, not SE. They just happen to be in Erikson books. Many of the themes and storylines you liked to read about were created by ICE, not SE.

Also Night of Knives may have been a small book, but Return of the Crimson Guard is a epic door-stopper in the tradition of any of the Erikson books. it must certainly is NOT a minor vignette and deals with themes that are central to the entire series.

Why don't you read Return of the Crimson Guard, now? Its set after The Bonehunters and carries on a lot of the storylines directly. See what you think of ICE's writing directly instead of casting aside the co-developer of the world. Than make up your mind as to whetehr you want to continue or not.

[Ulrik]

Well, everyone makes his own happiness (in some cases). He lose, not we:)

So, maybe Ill make i lil facepalm and forget this thread.




Just two things - 

Silverfox and main character? Hardly, really really hardly, that remained to ICE.

Despite my reservation to ICE, comparison to Brian Herbert is, well, stupidity, doubled so far by fact if you didnt read anything from him.

[chaosek]

It's quite simple really. Ice and SE outlined to whole story in the beginning. It was develloped as a new AD&D roleplaying game but ended up being fantasy novels. They probably have the bigger story in their heads. So technically SE isnt giving Silverfox to ICE, her story just continues elsewhere. Even if SE would have written all of the books Silverfox wouldn't have been in BH. It's kind of like GotM and DG. Not all plotlines from GotM continue in DG. Those that don't continu in DG continu in MoI. Silverfox is a likewise story. Het story started in GotM continued in MoI and will continu in other books. However the authors have limited time and decided to finish MTotF first.

[Sotgnomen]

Yay, some idiot went and made a ranting thread for us!

If you are still reading this.. Seriously, if you felt Wheel of Time was loosing track of its characters, then this series clearly is not for you.
WoT's a child's story compared to this one. Read it once and you can name most any major character and where it is at any time in the story. Almost no one has ever died. It got boring midways yes, but certainly not hard to keep track of.
Which character do you feel was left out in that series, and how short is your attention span?
I am very impressed that you even got as far as bonehunters in this one.

[Abyss]

I, for one, will be horrified and massively dissappointed if we never see the Mhybe again.


- Abyss,

[Kanubis]

 Abyss, on 05 November 2009 - 04:25 PM, said:

I, for one, will be horrified and massively dissappointed if we never see the Mhybe again.


- Abyss,

I kinda disagree, on the basis that everything that made her so godamn tedious and annoying should no longer be an issue.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Check your humour radar

[Kanubis]

 Hellian, on 05 November 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

Check your humour radar

Nooo, I saw the sarcasm (I'm British, it's my default mode) thus responded to what he was actually saying. In that I think it would be ok to see the whinging lass again.

Didn't I?