[Hinter]

Firstly - I LOVED this book after a slightly slow start.

Finished it a week ago and have been digesting..... An outstanding book after what was (for me) a poor one in TtH.

However, my point:

Part of me wants Fiddler, QB and the rest of the Bonehunters to be wiped out - in my humble opinion that would elevate SE to legendary status in the Hinter list of authors. I like authors that don't let you rest easy, that don't let you find a comfort zone. I really got interested in the MBotF when Whiskeyjack died in MoI. "Hello," I think, "I like this author because nothing is certain and nothing is sacred". He had the balls to kill possibly THE major character in the series to date and that gives his books the sense of danger and unpredictability that I love.

I'm sure I am going to get a lot of abuse for my next sentence:

Fiddler is getting boring.

There, I've said it. He just is getting a little old and predictable, story-wise Let him join his Bridgeburner comrades guarding Hood's gate. Let him take Hedge with him - the whole "new Bridgeburners" with "new munitions" storyline left me completely cold. I thought it was silly.

I almost cried, and did cheer out loud when Lostara Yil started her shadow dance against the Nah'Ruk (sp?). Let her ascend with the rest of them because she rocks!

Oviously Keneb ain't coming back, and he's joined by a few of the lesser known 14th Army (Primly, Mulvan Dreader, Ebron, several heavies, etc etc etc). Let them pass into legend.

I guess Tavore will survive because she's the only one with "the plan" on how to free the CG (still didn't get that, but this time the re-read will be a pleasure unlike TtH).

And QB will be back I'm sure, but why not let him go out on a high, dying in glory whilst protecting his comrades?

To try and summarise, I just feel the whole 14th army arc is a little samey. Lots of soldiers bitching at each other because they have nothing else to do. SE has introduced a bunch of new characters, and reprised some older ones (I claim the "first Draconus fan-boy" title, and will be starting a "Rake was lucky when he Dragnipured Drac thread" soon). He doesn't need the Bonehunters any more so let them rest in peace.

After all, Paran is out there somewhere with another host...

[Powder]

In answer to thread title, VERY
That is all.

[Sinisdar Toste]

much as i love fiddler, i do think that the poor bastard is getting crabby and bitter in his old age and deserves his rest. ever since bonehunters, when he discovered that he no longer believed in peace, fiddler has undergone some very subtle changes that are slowly destroying him. i don't think he's boring, i think he's starting to become a walking dead man. if fids dead, i'll grieve for him. but i'll be happy for him too. as for the rest of the bonehunters, i understand your annoyance at their endless sniping, but beyond that i think that the characterization of the soldiers was wonderful. im extremely jealous of the scenes that SE gets to write.

[Ribald]

It is rumoured that his cojones are so large that he requires a wheelbarrow to carry them when he wishes to walk anywhere...

[Sotgnomen]

It is said they are the Immovable Object to Chuck Norris' Unstoppable Force.

[HoosierDaddy]

Edited for being an asshole.

But, wanting the BB's to all die makes me unhappy with you.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 11 October 2009 - 11:49 PM

[Urb]

Pretty much anyone who dies can come back, which cheapens the effect of killing them off in the first place I think. The way SE killed off characters like Brys, Itkovian, Baudin, Beak, Felisin, etc., had a big impact on me as a reader because their sacrifice meant so much more when one had the impression that it was in fact the ultimate sacrifice. Then you find out that some of them come back, and when characters like Anomander Rake sacrifice themselves, all you're thinking is: "Oh well, she gave him that eye, so he'll be back."

I do think SE can be pretty ruthless to his characters from time to time (Trull comes to mind), but in response to the original post, I also agree that something of a comfort zone has been gradually built up around this series. As if certain characters have been off limits until the very end. But after this book I'm not so sure, and it remains to bee seen what actually happened to the Bonehunters...

One thing I would bet money on: Quick will be back in one form or another. Even if just as another guardian at Hood's gate.

[Ulrik]

Well, Fiddler is Paran of post MoI part in my pov. And as I wasn so much impressed by him early, hes my favourite now )and many others). Just soldier with few exceptional skills who lives for not war but soldiers. He is true hearth of Bonehunters and BH are broken now as was Host. do not count Host as powerful army, he is devastated by Coral and Dujeks death. They can merge with BH but only with Hedge and Fiddler as glue (and fid will probably definetely go mad because is balancing on edge of sanity.

[amphibian]

Hinter, on 09 October 2009 - 03:41 PM, said:

I almost cried, and did cheer out loud when Lostara Yil started her shadow dance against the Nah'Ruk (sp?). Let her ascend with the rest of them because she rocks!

She was never a Bridgeburner. She went from Shadow Dancer to Red Blade to part of the Bonehunters. It's unlikely she'd ascend to become one of Whiskeyjack's company.

[Sinisdar Toste]

amphibian, on 11 October 2009 - 11:39 PM, said:

Hinter, on 09 October 2009 - 03:41 PM, said:

I almost cried, and did cheer out loud when Lostara Yil started her shadow dance against the Nah'Ruk (sp?). Let her ascend with the rest of them because she rocks!

She was never a Bridgeburner. She went from Shadow Dancer to Red Blade to part of the Bonehunters. It's unlikely she'd ascend to become one of Whiskeyjack's company.

i think he's just saying she deserves to ascend with the bridgeburners because she is just so god-awesome...

as opposed to god-awful

[blackzoid]

Have to agree with parts of Hinters post. The BH had become too bloated with too many pov of minor soldiers. (Seriously we had how many pov of minor Dol Honese soldiers? After Fiddler's squad, Hedges's squad, Hetan's squad, Gesler's squad and debately Messan's/Deathsmell's squad, who honestly wanted to read about the really minor,minor soldiers like that woman who was worried about deserting while she got the Perish/Burned Tears.) After loving the BH in HoC and TBH, they had become too much in RG and parts of this book. Too many soldiers with a too many lifestories to read up on.
Its a major blessing that they have been weeded out by the Short-Tails.


I don't mean to knock SE, but I'm just wondering how much more awsome the book would have been, if we had less minor (in my opinion only of course) pov's of random soldiers and just ONE pov of a Short-Tail.A pov of their life-story would have been a nice-counter point to the Long-Tail passages. They were the victims of the Long-Tails originally remember?

[beru]

since they are hive mindes you cant get the pov of a shorttail without having all their plans and history sumed up into one massive pov

and i liked sinters pov (along with the other minor players povs)

[Ulrik]

blackzoid, on 13 October 2009 - 09:32 AM, said:

who honestly wanted to read about the really minor,minor soldiers like that woman who was worried about deserting while she got the Perish/Burned Tears.)

Me:) For me its brand of BH - bunch of soldiers recruited in desperate time, which went into three wars and battled partly one. They are different, they are fragmentised, they are something completely diferent from BB and Host, army build in hundreds of clashes and commanded by proven Fist. BH are those lil stories and pov. Thats the beauty of this army...its scrap of remaing, weird recruits and without it would be boring "something-like-Host" mass.

[blackzoid]

Ulrik, on 13 October 2009 - 10:13 AM, said:

blackzoid, on 13 October 2009 - 09:32 AM, said:

who honestly wanted to read about the really minor,minor soldiers like that woman who was worried about deserting while she got the Perish/Burned Tears.)

Me:) For me its brand of BH - bunch of soldiers recruited in desperate time, which went into three wars and battled partly one. They are different, they are fragmentised, they are something completely diferent from BB and Host, army build in hundreds of clashes and commanded by proven Fist. BH are those lil stories and pov. Thats the beauty of this army...its scrap of remaing, weird recruits and without it would be boring "something-like-Host" mass.

Sure, I agree. But would not one pov convey that across? Why do we need MULTIPLE pov characters to show the story of those wierd recruits?
Is it not a bit .....redundant?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 October 2009 - 11:36 AM

[Lister of Smeg]

I love all the different POVs from the army. In most stories, you only get to know the commanders so if the army gets massacred it's just numbers that are lost. With the Bonehunters, all these soldiers are shown as real people, with real lives and real motivations. I think SE's done a wonderful job in creating a cast of so many soldiers in the same army while still making them different enough that I care about each and every one of them. When the Nah'ruk started slaughtering them I felt it a lot more than I would have if we had only met Fid's squad, for example.

[Ulrik]

We have two situations
1) Nahruk charges BH and here dies soldier, here another, Tarr stoods, another soldier dies... result = OK, its massacre, but so far only anonymous faces dies, poor Keneb, but frak the rest, I didnt know them, its just background for Fid´s squad fight and Tavores desperation

2) Nahruk charges, kills A, B survives and get slaughtered by accident, C sees D torn to pieces. Damn, I know at least a little bit about them, I know some of their opinions, its loss for me and better for seeing that war is bitch and hero dies same easy way as "chosen".

I totally prefer second way, long expostion of characters and with it, more painful death. Well, in GoTM BBs looked like Kalam squad and nothing more, in MoI popped so many other characters and some minor went all way to TTH to be killed and me depressed:)

[blackzoid]

Ulrik, on 13 October 2009 - 11:41 AM, said:

We have two situations
1) Nahruk charges BH and here dies soldier, here another, Tarr stoods, another soldier dies... result = OK, its massacre, but so far only anonymous faces dies, poor Keneb, but frak the rest, I didnt know them, its just background for Fid´s squad fight and Tavores desperation

2) Nahruk charges, kills A, B survives and get slaughtered by accident, C sees D torn to pieces. Damn, I know at least a little bit about them, I know some of their opinions, its loss for me and better for seeing that war is bitch and hero dies same easy way as "chosen".

I totally prefer second way, long expostion of characters and with it, more painful death. Well, in GoTM BBs looked like Kalam squad and nothing more, in MoI popped so many other characters and some minor went all way to TTH to be killed and me depressed:)

Thats a bit of a black/white choice right there, isn't it? I mean you are basically using 2 alternatives from different ends of the spectrum. Not a fair question to be asked at all.

How about:

3) Nahruk charges, kills A, random soldier (who we have met previously, but didn't get a POV from, like Kindly for instance, who may not be random but who cares as its only an example) survives and get slaughtered by accident, Random soldier2 (who we have met previously, but didn't get a POV from.....like Kindly/Tavore) sees D torn to pieces. Lots of other random soldiers die, some named characters die etc etc
Then that leaves the surviving random minor characters to develop a POV in The Crippled God. They have earned their POV instead of having it given to them. But that POV then builds on what we already knew about them, rather then starting everything from scratch.


The point I'm trying to get across Ulrik, is that the background soldier characterisation does not need a POV info dump of each individual when we meet them. It would be more natural for us to get to know them through their actions, rather then through their thoughts. And pick up on where they came from through their interactions with the main charcaters. Its why I preferred the BH in HoC and TBH. We slowly got to know Fiddler's squad and then Gesler's squad and got namechecks for minor soldier characters. Those random soldier names were then kept consistent throughout the books. It seems more natural and less forced to do it that way.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 October 2009 - 01:44 PM

[Ulrik]

blackzoid, on 13 October 2009 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 13 October 2009 - 11:41 AM, said:

We have two situations
1) Nahruk charges BH and here dies soldier, here another, Tarr stoods, another soldier dies... result = OK, its massacre, but so far only anonymous faces dies, poor Keneb, but frak the rest, I didnt know them, its just background for Fid´s squad fight and Tavores desperation

2) Nahruk charges, kills A, B survives and get slaughtered by accident, C sees D torn to pieces. Damn, I know at least a little bit about them, I know some of their opinions, its loss for me and better for seeing that war is bitch and hero dies same easy way as "chosen".

I totally prefer second way, long expostion of characters and with it, more painful death. Well, in GoTM BBs looked like Kalam squad and nothing more, in MoI popped so many other characters and some minor went all way to TTH to be killed and me depressed:)

Thats a bit of a black/white choice right there, isn't it? I mean you are basically using 2 alternatives from different ends of the spectrum. Not a fair question to be asked at all.

How about:

3) Nahruk charges, kills A, random soldier (who we have met previously, but didn't get a POV from, like Kindly for instance, who may not be random but who cares as its only an example)  survives and get slaughtered by accident, Random soldier2 (who we have met previously, but didn't get a POV from.....like Kindly/Tavore) sees D torn to pieces. Lots of other random soldiers die, some named characters die etc etc
Then that leaves the surviving random minor characters to develop a POV in The Crippled God. They have earned their POV instead of having it given to them. But that POV then builds on what we already knew about them, rather then starting everything from scratch.


The point I'm trying to get across Ulrik, is that the background soldier characterisation does not need a POV info dump of each individual when we meet them. It would be more natural for us to get to know them through their actions, rather then through their thoughts. And pick up on where they came from through their interactions with the main charcaters.   Its why I preferred the BH in HoC and TBH. We slowly got to know Fiddler's squad and then Gesler's squad and got namechecks for minor soldier characters. Those random soldier names were then kept consistent throughout the books. It seems more natural and less forced to do it that way.

Oh man, just dont take it offensive pls, I just have a lot of work and Im writing it very simply (and short:)). We both have our likes and dislikes and I have no right (and intention) to say "you are wrooong!". Im just trying to in short way explain why I like SE´s way. Or DoD´s way. I generally like books with variety of  POV, I love e.g. Gemmell´s short parts where is detailed POV of guy who will die in next page. For me it makes mass which army is more...eh... living. I like to see those nasty basterds who thinks about others that are nasty basterds, dumb ones, cunning... 

well, as I said, its matter of your personal choice, you asked who is interested in this way of "overPOVing" and I responded:) My 1) and 2) case wasnt meant to be like "make your choice!".

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 13 October 2009 - 09:32 AM, said:

I don't mean to knock SE, but I'm just wondering how much more awsome the book would have been, if we had less minor (in my opinion only of course) pov's of random soldiers and just ONE pov of a Short-Tail.A pov of their life-story would have been a nice-counter point to the Long-Tail passages. They were the victims of the Long-Tails originally remember?

If anything, the K'Chain history we've gotten suggests that the resurrected Short Tails turned on the Long Tails first.

[blackzoid]

amphibian, on 13 October 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 13 October 2009 - 09:32 AM, said:

I don't mean to knock SE, but I'm just wondering how much more awsome the book would have been, if we had less minor (in my opinion only of course) pov's of random soldiers and just ONE pov of a Short-Tail.A pov of their life-story would have been a nice-counter point to the Long-Tail passages. They were the victims of the Long-Tails originally remember?

If anything, the K'Chain history we've gotten suggests that the resurrected Short Tails turned on the Long Tails first.

We have only got the Long-Tail point of view of that. Kallor's musing in MoI, plus the prologue to MT, both suggest that the resurrected Short-Tails were slaves of the Long-Tails and that they were expected to pool their magical abilities to the Matron. Opposing pov's have shown that the T'lan Imass were not in the right with their war on the Jaghut. A Short-tail Pov would have confirmed or retracted the view that the Short-Tails were victims. I certainly thought they were, especially after we learned that Silchas Ruin parleyed with them.

Its just odd, that barring The Crippled God, which I doubt they will be in, we never got a pov of a Short-Tail in the series whereas we did get a POV of some FA, (the "quitters" chasing the Snake), who will probably be in TCG anyway. It seemed like a wasted opportunity to show 2 sides of the civil war, instead of leaving us with the impression that the KCNR were the real "bad guys" of the civil war. I like the moral ambiquity of how SE portrays wars. I don't want the KCCM to be the "goodies" and the KCNR the "baddies"

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 October 2009 - 03:26 PM