[Traveller]

I've been reading Midnight Tides, followed by Reapers Gale, as both have many story threads that build towards and continue in DoD.
(Trull is now one of my favourite characters) and Midnight Tides is just.. brilliant.

Couldn't help noticing the owl inclusions, in relation to Trull, from his very first scene. I know SE says he like to layer things,
and I've picked up many things on re-reads before - the owl is either a subtle, continuing omen of Trulls fate, or I'm reading too much into it.
Either way, it's there. The owl is mentioned somewhere as being an 'old omen,' so I think it is a subtle clue.

First inclusion - In Trulls 1st appearance, as Trull is racing back to tell the Edur about the seal harvesting, he runs unaware, past a hunting owl.

Second appearance - Trull is hunting Letherii; a dead owl is lying beside the trail

Third appearance - Seren Padac finally reaches her home, thinking of Trull - and there's a dead owl in her house.

Fourth appearance - Bottles talking in his sleep. 'He never sees the owl. That's the problem.'
'Ask the mice. They'll tell you..If you want to live, pay attention to the shadow. The shadow. The owl's shadow.'

Fifth appearance - It's final, tragic appearance - There was that one moment when a shadow had flitted across the sand - a damned owl, of all things
- but the fool had not noticed.

Just sharing is all - well, after noticing the owl sharing a paragraph at Trulls introduction, and one at his death, the others stood out a bit more, especially the one in Serens house.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 06 October 2009 - 08:54 PM

[beru]

well that is the general belife all tho you found more than usual ive only seen bottles dream as a hint before but you are proably right...

[Sinisdar Toste]

wow, yeah the owl references had always seemed like they connected in a more meaningful way and you really lend that more creedence. i think it could be somehow leading up to the birth of the ruler of shadow. crazy how SE can thread that in there so seamlessly.

[D'rek]

Owls are a very populous species on Lether due to the high density of wild mice in the forests. Or something.

Also they can see the souls of the dead or something like that - Bottle says so in tBH.

[chill]

Am I the only one who missed every mention of the owl? :/

I keep rereading these owl appearances you listed and, besides being somehow relevant to Trull, I really can't see any connection. Maybe it only has poetic significance?

[D'rek]

 chill, on 07 October 2009 - 07:22 PM, said:

Am I the only one who missed every mention of the owl? :/

I keep rereading these owl appearances you listed and, besides being somehow relevant to Trull, I really can't see any connection. Maybe it only has poetic significance?

not even poetic significance, just nocturnal-bird significance. The marines were sleeping during the day and moving about at nights. SE needed a bird that would be awake at night. Answer = owl. It's really that easy...

[masan's saddle]

Perhaps the relevance of the owl is similar to that of native American spirit guides ?

Reflecting Trull's choice of path , destiny/ fate etc.

Dunno, but nice spot Trav.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 D, on 08 October 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

 chill, on 07 October 2009 - 07:22 PM, said:

Am I the only one who missed every mention of the owl? :/

I keep rereading these owl appearances you listed and, besides being somehow relevant to Trull, I really can't see any connection. Maybe it only has poetic significance?

not even poetic significance, just nocturnal-bird significance. The marines were sleeping during the day and moving about at nights. SE needed a bird that would be awake at night. Answer = owl. It's really that easy...

don't you think you're being obtuse? 'it's really that easy' is a phrase that should never be applied to SE. the connection to trull is rather poetic in a tragic sort of way, and the new ruler of shadow angle is even relevant where bottle is concernened because he's been having eres'al visitations. and is she not apparently working to heal shadow?

now thats a real weird situation if i remember it correctly. the eres'al carries trulls child, the only candidate to rule a healed shadow. but then trull gets seren preggers and its her baby thats supposed to rule the realm... perhaps it has to do with the eres'al's ability to travel time. immaculate monkey conception or something

[D'rek]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 08 October 2009 - 03:34 PM, said:

 D, on 08 October 2009 - 03:55 AM, said:

 chill, on 07 October 2009 - 07:22 PM, said:

Am I the only one who missed every mention of the owl? :/

I keep rereading these owl appearances you listed and, besides being somehow relevant to Trull, I really can't see any connection. Maybe it only has poetic significance?

not even poetic significance, just nocturnal-bird significance. The marines were sleeping during the day and moving about at nights. SE needed a bird that would be awake at night. Answer = owl. It's really that easy...

don't you think you're being obtuse? 'it's really that easy' is a phrase that should never be applied to SE. the connection to trull is rather poetic in a tragic sort of way, and the new ruler of shadow angle is even relevant where bottle is concernened because he's been having eres'al visitations. and is she not apparently working to heal shadow?

now thats a real weird situation if i remember it correctly. the eres'al carries trulls child, the only candidate to rule a healed shadow. but then trull gets seren preggers and its her baby thats supposed to rule the realm... perhaps it has to do with the eres'al's ability to travel time. immaculate monkey conception or something

So you're advocating a connection between Bottle and Trull concerning the healing of Emurlahn because they've both been in close proximity to an owl?

Look, if Trull had seen owls on his journey and each time he had avoided disaster because of them, and then missing the one in the arena caused him to die, that is poetic and tragic and such. But as it is, I don't really think the owls in MT have any discernible connection or similarity to the ones later on (missing one while he was running for the seals certainly didnt cause Trull any grief so its unlike the last one). And Bottle's bit is most definitely not poetic. Blatant foreshadowing, I guess, though so specific that it's not like you could ever use what he said to imagine anything before it occured (and if you did you'd figure it out 2 lines before it did happen)...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 08 October 2009 - 08:57 PM

[Dredge]

In a Hannan Mosag POV it is clear that the owl is the symbol of the Mortal Sword of Kurald Emurlahn. Mosag tries to nominate a candidate, only to find that Kurald Emurlahn has already chosen Trull.

This is reinforced by the earlier appearance of Trull as the Knight of Shadow in Fiddler's reading of the Deck of Dragons aboard the fleet.

The Errant's interference caused the death of Trull in a doubly ironic way: by ensuring that Trull did not notice the shadow of an owl.

Presumably, with Trull's demise, the position of Mortal Sword is open once more. (Or perhaps it will pass (/has passed) to his offspring?)

Traveller:
Darn, I missed the one in Seren's house too. Nicely spotted.

This post has been edited by Dredge: 21 November 2009 - 08:28 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 Dredge, on 21 November 2009 - 08:22 AM, said:

In a Hannan Mosag POV it is clear that the owl is the symbol of the Mortal Sword of Kurald Emurlahn. Mosag tries to nominate a candidate, only to find that Kurald Emurlahn has already chosen Trull.

.

Ehm, Trull is not the Mortal Sword of KE, he's the Knight of HHS, it's different. I may remeber wrong but Mosag says something like: " But, he's not even Edur!" and then sends Buthren whatever to find Brys.

[Dredge]

Trull appears as Knight of HHS in part because he's the Mortal Sword of KE; a position within the house of an active fragment mirroring the 'choice' of the older shattered whole.

I'm having to go by memory here, and for the "not even Edur" part, I don't actually recall whether that was clearly Trull-specific or not. (It doesn't matter either way, or rather, it tracks either way, as Trull's arguably "not Edur" any longer because he's been shorn.) My reading/recollection (possibly faulty) was that the "not Edur" part was infact unrelated to Trull: Mosag goes with a plan in mind, finds his assumptions about the vacancy of the role of Mortal Sword screwed, then receives visions/instructions concerning the will of KE concerning has is to be done regarding Brys and Rhulad - the latter aspect having nothing to do with Mortal Swords or whatnot.

I could certainly be wrong in the details of the sequence, but what is unarguable is the very specific explanation in that scene that owl = symbol of the Mortal Sword of KE, revealing that Trull = Mortal Sword, completely explaining the linkages between owls and Trull that Traveller listed.

This post has been edited by Dredge: 22 November 2009 - 03:59 PM

[D'rek]

Dredge and BtE both --> Quote for proof (though I am with BtE I think I remember that in reference to Brys - MS of KE {and the Errant, and Saviour of the ET and forty other things...})...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ok. here it is:

RG page 448

Quote

No.It cannot be.There is no one alive to claim that title.
He is dead.
He was not even Tiste Edur.
And yet, who stood alone againstbefore Rhulad Sengar?
[...]
He shall be our Mortals Sword of Emurlahn. Why would he even agree? Letherii...

So, I relly believe it is Brys.

[Dredge]

You're absolutely right, Bauchelain. That's proof of KE's choice of Brys.

My apologies that my misrememberings obscured rather than clarified the issue.

I'll have to get RG back and re-read that whole sequence (amongst others) to nail down the owl/Trull linkage more precisely.

Furthermore, I'm wondering to myself if the chronology here could be vitally important: does Brys' reapperance occur before, after, or at the exact moment of Trull's death?

Hmmm...

[Eispeis]

But isn't Brys also the Mortal Sword of the Errant after Feather Witch's less than savory dabbling?

And if he is the Mortal Sword of Kurald Emuhrlan, is he also the MS of Shadow, or only one fragment of KE?

Is the Knight of Shadow and MS of KE the same position? That would mean that Trull and Seren's son will likely ascend to that title at some point.

I'm thoroughly confused, but maybe DoD makes it clearer, only about 150 pages in.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Both Mosag and Feather Witch wanted Brys to be their MS. One for KE and one for the errant. But they failed. At the very least, Brys is the Saviour of the Empty Throne.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 27 November 2009 - 05:40 PM

[Abyss]

You can interpret this a few different ways. After all, High House Shadow, Shadow as in the warren Meanas/etc, Elder Shadow as in Kurald Emurlahn, and The Empty Throne Hold which may be related to Shadow... can all be separate things with their own aspects.

Plus Mosag babbles something about 'ALL TISTE', and he prays to Mommy D and Father L, so there is some room for interpretation about just what role Brys is supposed to fill.


- Abyss, shady.