[Wotist]

I know its an older topic but I haven't read the newer books (and probably won't) so if there's relevant information in later books I'd like people to be able to share it.

Ok, so we have Tattersail and Tayschrenn's conflicting accounts of what happened at Pale. Clearly, Tattersail's account is more accurate because we get to ride shotgun in her head as it happens and later on we have multiple characters confirm her version of events (Rake, Hairlock, Kalam). Tayschrenn (through Dujek) and Laseen relate a different version of events in MoI and DH, however they both have reason to lie. However, Gardens of the Moon doesn't seem to count as Malazan canon. It seems like something similar to it occurred but different in key ways.

So is it generally assumed that Tay's version of events is the canonical one? I don't particularly like that since it seems to indicate some weird motivations on the Nightchill's part. Nightchill wants Dragnipur--which makes some amount of sense. Killing A'Karonys doesn't really seem to. I mean supposedly he knew Nightchill's plan but he's already had ample time to pass that information along. Furthermore, when fighting Anomander Rake it seems like a colossally bad idea to start offing your allies. Rake is by far the most dangerous person on the field and your chances of actually taking him out are already slim.

[Powder]

Wotist, on 30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

I know its an older topic but I haven't read the newer books (and probably won't) so if there's relevant information in later books I'd like people to be able to share it.

Why wouldn't you?

[Venerus]

Wotist, on 30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

I know its an older topic but I haven't read the newer books (and probably won't) so if there's relevant information in later books I'd like people to be able to share it.

Ok, so we have Tattersail and Tayschrenn's conflicting accounts of what happened at Pale. Clearly, Tattersail's account is more accurate because we get to ride shotgun in her head as it happens and later on we have multiple characters confirm her version of events (Rake, Hairlock, Kalam). Tayschrenn (through Dujek) and Laseen relate a different version of events in MoI and DH, however they both have reason to lie. However, Gardens of the Moon doesn't seem to count as Malazan canon. It seems like something similar to it occurred but different in key ways.

So is it generally assumed that Tay's version of events is the canonical one? I don't particularly like that since it seems to indicate some weird motivations on the Nightchill's part. Nightchill wants Dragnipur--which makes some amount of sense. Killing A'Karonys doesn't really seem to. I mean supposedly he knew Nightchill's plan but he's already had ample time to pass that information along. Furthermore, when fighting Anomander Rake it seems like a colossally bad idea to start offing your allies. Rake is by far the most dangerous person on the field and your chances of actually taking him out are already slim.

Nightchill is frost aspected; hence, Tay's recollection/order of events is correct, and 'Sail is mistaken. If Tay's had been attacking people, it would have been flames, you see, and A'Karony's demise was a chilly affair.

Wurd.
-ven-

[Vengeance]

Wotist, on 30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

I know its an older topic but I haven't read the newer books (and probably won't) so if there's relevant information in later books I'd like people to be able to share it.

Ok, so we have Tattersail and Tayschrenn's conflicting accounts of what happened at Pale. Clearly, Tattersail's account is more accurate because we get to ride shotgun in her head as it happens and later on we have multiple characters confirm her version of events (Rake, Hairlock, Kalam). Tayschrenn (through Dujek) and Laseen relate a different version of events in MoI and DH, however they both have reason to lie. However, Gardens of the Moon doesn't seem to count as Malazan canon. It seems like something similar to it occurred but different in key ways.

So is it generally assumed that Tay's version of events is the canonical one? I don't particularly like that since it seems to indicate some weird motivations on the Nightchill's part. Nightchill wants Dragnipur--which makes some amount of sense. Killing A'Karonys doesn't really seem to. I mean supposedly he knew Nightchill's plan but he's already had ample time to pass that information along. Furthermore, when fighting Anomander Rake it seems like a colossally bad idea to start offing your allies. Rake is by far the most dangerous person on the field and your chances of actually taking him out are already slim.

First I second Powders question.
Second there is no canonical version. Although it is generally understood by everyone involved in the mess at Pale that it was basically a total Fubar. Basically it came down to several misunderstandings and false impressions. We don't know Nightchills reasons for doing what she did. Perhaps she was also like Dracononis and trying to find a way around Kallors curse.

This post has been edited by Vengeance: 01 October 2009 - 01:01 AM

[Abyss]

Wotist, on 30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM, said:

I know its an older topic but I haven't read the newer books (and probably won't) so if there's relevant information in later books I'd like people to be able to share it.

You're not interested in the post MoI books but you want to know what is in them about an event that took place back in the first novel? If you don't enjoy the books enough to keep reading them, why bother?

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Ok, so we have Tattersail and Tayschrenn's conflicting accounts of what happened at Pale. Clearly, Tattersail's account is more accurate because we get to ride shotgun in her head as it happens and later on we have multiple characters confirm her version of events (Rake, Hairlock, Kalam). Tayschrenn (through Dujek) and Laseen relate a different version of events in MoI and DH, however they both have reason to lie.

Nope. Tattersail provides a point of view, but she does not know what's happening beyond what she sees. Tays, Dujek and Laseen all provide additional information about what the reader via Tattersail saw. Sure, they could be lying, but they never contradict what she saw, tho they may contradict what she thought she saw. To get the full picture, re-read the battle at Pale after reading DG (fr Laseen's perspective)and MoI (for Tays' and Dujek's input).

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However, Gardens of the Moon doesn't seem to count as Malazan canon.

Wrong. It is absolutely canon, with the sole exception of Orfantal's sex change operation.

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... Nightchill wants Dragnipur--which makes some amount of sense. Killing A'Karonys doesn't really seem to. I mean supposedly he knew Nightchill's plan but he's already had ample time to pass that information along. Furthermore, when fighting Anomander Rake it seems like a colossally bad idea to start offing your allies. Rake is by far the most dangerous person on the field and your chances of actually taking him out are already slim.

Nighty wanted Dragnipur because she wanted to free Draconus. Aakaronys was onto her scheme, warned Tays and tried to stop her, so she took him out. Tays didn't want her to get it, couldn't save Aaka', but took out Nightchill (which says a lot about Tays given we know she was an Elder God, albeit likely weaker than her heights due to lack of worship). And all of this was happening during the fight with Rake, whom everyone underestimated, but, without all the byplay between the High Mages, they may very well have had a shot at taking him out. As it was, Rake was hard pressed in part because he was trying to protect Moon's Spawn, which was a great big floating target for four High Mages (counting Bellurdan, who probably wasn't in on Nighty's play given his later chat with Tattersail) and the mage cadre.


We find out more about Tays in later books that explains a bit more about who he is and what he does and why he would have opposed Nightchill's efforts to free Draconus, whom no one particularly wanted to see strolling around again.

Of course, you're not interested in reading any of that...

- Abyss, post fu mastah.

[Wotist]

I doubt I'll read later books because Letheras is boring and I don't like the Bonehunters. Reaper's Gale is a book that features the Bonehunters on Letheras.

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Nope. Tattersail provides a point of view, but she does not know what's happening beyond what she sees. Tays, Dujek and Laseen all provide additional information about what the reader via Tattersail saw. Sure, they could be lying, but they never contradict what she saw, tho they may contradict what she thought she saw. To get the full picture, re-read the battle at Pale after reading DG (fr Laseen's perspective)and MoI (for Tays' and Dujek's input).

Yes, but what Tattersail sees is Nightchill ripped apart by a demon, Bellurdan kills the demon, and then A'Karonys gets killed by an ice spell. Dujek later claims Tayschrenn used the demon to kill Nightchill because she killed A'Karonys. Clearly only one of these accounts can be right. Like I said before, we were riding shotgun in Tattersail's head when she saw this so we know her account is accurate. So both Tayschrenn and Laseen are lying....unless we assume Tattersail's account is a GoTMism. Of course, we also have Calot getting taken out by a fire spell, Hairlock claiming Tayschrenn killed him and Calot, Kalam agreeing that it was Tay, and Rake telling Baruk that someone was intentionally unleashing demons on their own troops (I have no clue why Rake decided to kill the demons).

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Wrong. It is absolutely canon, with the sole exception of Orfantal's sex change operation.

Aside from Dujek's age, Tool's magic deadening field, terms like sorceress, wizard, and night-hunter, the bone phones..etc, etc.

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Nighty wanted Dragnipur because she wanted to free Draconus. Aakaronys was onto her scheme, warned Tays and tried to stop her, so she took him out. Tays didn't want her to get it, couldn't save Aaka', but took out Nightchill (which says a lot about Tays given we know she was an Elder God, albeit likely weaker than her heights due to lack of worship). And all of this was happening during the fight with Rake, whom everyone underestimated, but, without all the byplay between the High Mages, they may very well have had a shot at taking him out. As it was, Rake was hard pressed in part because he was trying to protect Moon's Spawn, which was a great big floating target for four High Mages (counting Bellurdan, who probably wasn't in on Nighty's play given his later chat with Tattersail) and the mage cadre.

We actually don't know why Nightchill wanted it. It may have just been because Rake was being too merciful and not using it enough.

In any case, I don't see much sense to killing A'Karonys. The Malazans seem to only have the barest inkling of who Rake is, whereas Nightchill has been acquainted with him for hundreds of thousands of years. She knows he's a badass, and unlike the others she actually wants to kill him (or at least get close enough to take his sword) rather than just drive Moonspawn away. Starting a fight with her own side while surrounded by an army, several high mages, and the cadre seems like a bad decision.

[Venerus]

Wotist, on 01 October 2009 - 10:10 PM, said:

I doubt I'll read later books because Letheras is boring and I don't like the Bonehunters. Reaper's Gale is a book that features the Bonehunters on Letheras.

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Nope. Tattersail provides a point of view, but she does not know what's happening beyond what she sees. Tays, Dujek and Laseen all provide additional information about what the reader via Tattersail saw. Sure, they could be lying, but they never contradict what she saw, tho they may contradict what she thought she saw. To get the full picture, re-read the battle at Pale after reading DG (fr Laseen's perspective)and MoI (for Tays' and Dujek's input).

Yes, but what Tattersail sees is Nightchill ripped apart by a demon, Bellurdan kills the demon, and then A'Karonys gets killed by an ice spell. Dujek later claims Tayschrenn used the demon to kill Nightchill because she killed A'Karonys. Clearly only one of these accounts can be right. Like I said before, we were riding shotgun in Tattersail's head when she saw this so we know her account is accurate. So both Tayschrenn and Laseen are lying....unless we assume Tattersail's account is a GoTMism. Of course, we also have Calot getting taken out by a fire spell, Hairlock claiming Tayschrenn killed him and Calot, Kalam agreeing that it was Tay, and Rake telling Baruk that someone was intentionally unleashing demons on their own troops (I have no clue why Rake decided to kill the demons).

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Wrong. It is absolutely canon, with the sole exception of Orfantal's sex change operation.

Aside from Dujek's age, Tool's magic deadening field, terms like sorceress, wizard, and night-hunter, the bone phones..etc, etc.

Quote

Nighty wanted Dragnipur because she wanted to free Draconus. Aakaronys was onto her scheme, warned Tays and tried to stop her, so she took him out. Tays didn't want her to get it, couldn't save Aaka', but took out Nightchill (which says a lot about Tays given we know she was an Elder God, albeit likely weaker than her heights due to lack of worship). And all of this was happening during the fight with Rake, whom everyone underestimated, but, without all the byplay between the High Mages, they may very well have had a shot at taking him out. As it was, Rake was hard pressed in part because he was trying to protect Moon's Spawn, which was a great big floating target for four High Mages (counting Bellurdan, who probably wasn't in on Nighty's play given his later chat with Tattersail) and the mage cadre.

We actually don't know why Nightchill wanted it. It may have just been because Rake was being too merciful and not using it enough.

In any case, I don't see much sense to killing A'Karonys. The Malazans seem to only have the barest inkling of who Rake is, whereas Nightchill has been acquainted with him for hundreds of thousands of years. She knows he's a badass, and unlike the others she actually wants to kill him (or at least get close enough to take his sword) rather than just drive Moonspawn away. Starting a fight with her own side while surrounded by an army, several high mages, and the cadre seems like a bad decision.

Actually, you're wrong. We know Tattersail's account is inaccurate; it is correct in terms of the events described (which all accounts agree on; Lass/Tays/etc) but not in timeline. We know this because of the flavors of magic used to kill everyone. SE actually pointed this out at some point, in an interview or forum post or somewhere, can't remember. A'Karonys dies to *ice magic* which Tay's does not have; Nightchill made the first move, then Tays reacted.

When the author tells you it's so, you can be assured it is so.....

[Silencer]

More to the point, we saw it from Tattersai's view - but AFTER the event, as a recollection. Both Hairlock and the Bridgeburner's were, at that point, predisposed against Tayschrenn, so it was easy enough for the soon-to-be-puppet to convince Tattersail that Tays was responsible. Remember, he hates the High Mage, he has motive to lie as well. Memory manipulation is easy when the target is confused and does not have a proper recollection of the events to start with (she recalls basically just shutting down and trying to survive).
We never actually witness the events as they happen, so to speak. And, it IS logical that the tunnels were the safest place for the BB's, rather than on the field.

Nightchill wanted Dragnipur, either to free Draconus (and her reason for doing so? To break Kallor's curse, to weaken it, thus allowing her to escape her own) or to continue to feed the weapon souls. Did she underestimate Rake? Or did she underestimate Tayschrenn, thinking she could take on both him and Rake? Or that A'karonys' death would not get Tay's attention...

Either way, she is an Elder God, and no doubt expected to be able to hold her own in that battle.

As for the demons and the spells hitting Hairlock, there are a few explanations; Hairlock attempted to move against Tay during the battle, perhaps spurred on by the apparent betrayal of the other High Mages Tay was carrying out, and so Tay decided to save himself the trouble. Alternatively, Hairlock was actually using his warren to alter Tattersail's memory (I believe his warren is never fully announced, so he could be Mockra, or more likely Rashan, given his warren is 'anathema' to 'Sail's).

Most of it is speculation, but logical enough to make sense.

[Wotist]

Venerus, on 01 October 2009 - 10:37 PM, said:

Actually, you're wrong. We know Tattersail's account is inaccurate; it is correct in terms of the events described (which all accounts agree on; Lass/Tays/etc) but not in timeline. We know this because of the flavors of magic used to kill everyone. SE actually pointed this out at some point, in an interview or forum post or somewhere, can't remember. A'Karonys dies to *ice magic* which Tay's does not have; Nightchill made the first move, then Tays reacted.

When the author tells you it's so, you can be assured it is so.....

If you could give me a link that'd be handy. As it is I don't find the ice spell that compelling as evidence because: Nightchill was dead at that point, I have no problem believing that Tay--most accomplished mage of the Malazan Empire and master of several different warrens that we know of--could use an ice spell, and of course Rake could be using ice spells.

[Wotist]

I'm surprised. I'd assumed there was a split in the readership about how to view the events at Pale but it seems like everyone is pretty firmly in the Tayschrenn is telling the truth camp. Is that because, like Venerus said, Erikson has confirmed that is the correct interpretation or is their something else? I mean both Tayschrenn and Laseen are people that have a less than stellar reputation when it comes to being truthful.

Silencer, on 01 October 2009 - 10:59 PM, said:

More to the point, we saw it from Tattersai's view - but AFTER the event, as a recollection.

Have we ever seen a part of this series where such flashbacks were mistaken?

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Both Hairlock and the Bridgeburner's were, at that point, predisposed against Tayschrenn, so it was easy enough for the soon-to-be-puppet to convince Tattersail that Tays was responsible. Remember, he hates the High Mage, he has motive to lie as well. Memory manipulation is easy when the target is confused and does not have a proper recollection of the events to start with (she recalls basically just shutting down and trying to survive).
We never actually witness the events as they happen, so to speak.

Hairlock was cut in half at the time and barely keeping himself alive with his warren and Tattersail had more or less already came to the betrayal conclusion herself. There's no complex manipulation going on her. Hairlock had suspected betray since the moment Tayschrenn showed up though.

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And, it IS logical that the tunnels were the safest place for the BB's, rather than on the field.

Not really. Laseen's claim that she was trying to protect the BBs doesn't make sense. See, I could buy her being indifferent to the BBs and them being taken out by accident but one thing that doesn't make sense is Laseen going out of her way to protect them. It is mentioned repeatedly that the BBs were the Emperor's favorites and the closest thing Dancer had to friends. In fact, the Empress's Adjunct believes the BBs have been infiltrated by the Rope. Laseen has no reason to favor them with special protection and many reasons to get rid of them. This is so apparent to the characters that Dujek, Hairlock, and Whiskeyjack started negotiating secret treaties as soon as Tayschrenn showed up.

Furthermore, Tayschrenn's plan was hitting Moon Spawn with loads of high explosive magics. Placing your soldiers in tunnels underneath a giant floating rock your about to start blowing pieces off of does not sound like a safe place to me.

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Either way, she is an Elder God, and no doubt expected to be able to hold her own in that battle.

Except Rake has already "killed" Draconus, which is something that should give her pause.

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As for the demons and the spells hitting Hairlock, there are a few explanations; Hairlock attempted to move against Tay during the battle, perhaps spurred on by the apparent betrayal of the other High Mages Tay was carrying out, and so Tay decided to save himself the trouble. Alternatively, Hairlock was actually using his warren to alter Tattersail's memory (I believe his warren is never fully announced, so he could be Mockra, or more likely Rashan, given his warren is 'anathema' to 'Sail's).

Most of it is speculation, but logical enough to make sense.

Have we ever seen a warren used to alter someones memories? Hairlock is differently not using Mockra. Mockra is Calot's warren and Tattersail knows it well. Also, I thought the anathema line referred to Tays but maybe I'm wrong.

You're explanation does not make a lot of sense. You're claiming Hairlock tried to kill Tays (which we have no evidence of) and Tays responded by attacking the entire mage cadre and unleashing demons to attack the rank and file soldiers. I find this explanation extremely doubtful.

[amphibian]

Wotist, on 04 October 2009 - 02:25 AM, said:

You're explanation does not make a lot of sense.

I suggest you read the further books. The more information you have, the more you can develop an accurate sense for the characters. I am of the opinion that the siege at Pale was not mistakenly presented by Erikson, and that Tayschrenn was telling the truth. There are certain things you read in the later books that hint at how powerful Tayschrenn is and those tidbits of information make his version much more plausible.

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Have we ever seen a part of this series where such flashbacks were mistaken?

We have seen accounts of events that have been deliberately manipulated or presented with a spin as to effect certain outcomes many, many times in the series.

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Furthermore, Tayschrenn's plan was hitting Moon Spawn with loads of high explosive magics. Placing your soldiers in tunnels underneath a giant floating rock your about to start blowing pieces off of does not sound like a safe place to me.

And being above ground surrounding the mages - who would be taking the brunt of the return fire - would be safer?

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Except Rake has already "killed" Draconus, which is something that should give her pause.

Pride goeth before the fall. Or perhaps Envy does.

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Have we ever seen a warren used to alter someones memories?

Yes.

Spoiler

There are two characters in Reaper's Gale.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 04 October 2009 - 03:42 AM

[Silencer]

And do not forget Banaschar, the Priest of D'rek, who escapes capture by Hellian and Urb - memory alteration to the point that they cannot recall his face to give a description.

Rake imprisoned Draconus in his own sword, implying the battle between them was one of physical combat, not magical. Throughout the series we have seen Rake forsake magic to use a sword, thus it is easy to see that Nightchill would not be averse to taking him on magically.

I for one certainly feel that, given we use underground bunkers to protect ourselves from bombs, rather than standing on the street, it is very, very logical that underground > killing field in this scenario...

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Have we ever seen a warren used to alter someones memories? Hairlock is differently not using Mockra. Mockra is Calot's warren and Tattersail knows it well. Also, I thought the anathema line referred to Tays but maybe I'm wrong.

Think about this for a second. A mage using Mockra can make their warren appear to be whatever they should choose - if the other mage is not expecting it, or is not powerful enough to counter it, then they can do that easily. Remember, Mockra is the Warren of the Mind, and as such essentially has no limitation when it comes to that aspect.

When discussing this topic, however, it pays to consider that, with statements such as the following:
"He's added something up all right. What's so particular about Nightchill, Bellurdan and A'Karonys? Why did Tayschrenn pick them and how did Hairlock know he'd pick them?"
We then fail to see any other High Mages, old, pre-existing High Mages, than those mentioned.

"Tattersail had fallen to her knees. Calot stood over her, chaining words of power over her, his face turned away from Moon's Spawn, fixed on something or someone down below on the plain. His eyes were wide with terror.



Too late Tattersail understood what was happening. Calot was defending her at his own expense. A final act, even as he watched his own death erupt around him. A blast of bright fire engulfed him. Abruptly the net of protection over Tattersail vanished."

Calot is killed by fire, yes? This would imply Tayschrenn.

"She saw a wave sweep past Hairlock's defences, cutting him in half. His howl was more rage than pain..."

A wave of what? It is not mentioned.

"Calot had faced the plain not Moon's Spawn - he'd faced right! Hairlock had been struck from the plain!"
And yet, only one of those waves has any solidity whatsoever to actually be coming from Tayschrenn.

"She watched as a Kenryll'ah demon arose beneath Nightchill. Laughing shrilly, the towering, gaunt creature tore Nightchill limb from limb. It had begun feeding by the time Bellurdan arrived. The Thelomen bellowed as the demon raked its knife-like talons against his chest. Ignoring the wounds around his head and the blood that sprayed from them, he closed his hands around the demon's head and crushed it.



A'Karonys unleashed gouts of flame from the staff in his hands until Moon's Spawn almost disappeared inside a ball of fire. Then ethereal wings of ice closed around the short, fat wizard, freezing him where he stood. An instant later he was crushed to dust."
Now, this is our contentious piece. Not only is A'karonys using fire (killed Calot?), but we assume that his death comes after that of Nightchill's. Not only is Nightchill necessarily dead when she gets torn in half (Hairlock survived, no?), there is nothing to actually confirm that it was one then the other. Merely in the recounting on events, it is seen afterwards.

"His [Hairlock's] face darkened then and the smile faded. Something burned in his eyes. 'Think back, woman! Calot and I. When we went down. What did you see? Did you feel something? Something odd? Come on, think! Look at me! See my wound, see how I'm lying! Which direction was I facing when that wave hit?'



She saw the fire in his eyes, of anger mingled with triumph. 'I'm not sure,' she said slowly. 'Something, yes.' That detached, reasoning part of her mind that had laboured with her throughout the battle, that had screamed in her mind at Calot's death, screamed in answer to the waves of sorcery - to the fact that they had come from the plain. Her eyes narrowed on Hairlock. 'Anomander Rake never bothered to aim. He was being indiscriminate. Those waves of power were aimed, weren't they? Coming at us from the wrong side.' She was trembling. 'But why? Why would Tayschrenn do that?'"
If this does not scream of manipulation and scheming to you, I don't know what does. He leads her down a very specific path of thought, with a gleam of triumph in his eyes. "Something burned in his eyes" could also be effort in using sorcery. It's not a given, but it's possible. "See how I'm lying" -> who says he couldn't have shifted? Just a point to make.


It's one of those things that is never resolved in-text. But you have to remember that Dujek and Whiskeyjack both accept Tayschrenn's explanation, the fact that his "role in things pas was...misunderstood". A temporary laying to rest in order to combat a larger danger? Perhaps. But you cannot dismiss out of hand that Hairlock hated Tay, that he worked on 'Sail, and that he also visited the BB's:
"Hairlock had been sent down into the tunnels by Dujek. And Whiskeyjack and his squad had been down there. A deal had been struck."
And made a plan with them. Setting the seeds in place before the event.
Tay and Laseen have reason to lie, yes. Dujek and Whiskeyjack have reason to support that lie. Hairlock has reason to lie. The BB's and 'Sail have reason to believe that lie. Which do you believe? It's up to you. But to me the evidence is certainly not enough to say that Tay was lying. I much more suspect Hairlock of manipulation and scheming in this regard.
It's an unresolved issue, and one that has been argued over heaps. So far, everyone responding to you have said that Tay is trustworthy, to an extent, and provided reasons for it being that version of events that is true...what more do you want? XD

[Scylvendi]

I have a question on this (also first time poster, HI GUYS). As I've followed the series I've accepted Tay's version of events as well. However, if Nightchill turned on her fellow mages, does this therefore mean her death wasn't a betrayal, and thus wasn't a result of the curse?

In this case, does this mean there is a betrayal coming to Silverfox in the last book?

[Mentalist]

to the debate above, I can also add that Hairlock didn't need to use Mockra to alter Tattersail's perception--post-trauma people are highly suggestible, and our memories are nowhere near as accurate as we think */eyewitness psychology lecture*

for Scylvendi's question, i'm not sure, but given some things in DoD, in particular Olar Ethil's bringing the T'lan Imass back as an independent power, and calling Silverfox "naive" and all, it's possible we may get a clash and a "betrayal" when she tries to release the T'lan Imass after Assail.

or, altenatively, some things in MoI could be considered "betrayal"--the T'lan Ay@ Black Coral, the Itkovian sequence same place, the Mhybe leaving in Capustan.....

[blackzoid]

I don't know how much of Nightchill is in Silverfox.
but to me, the more I read the books, the more Kallor was right and the more Silverfox seems wrong.
Especially in light of her complete ass-reading of the KCCM/Jaghut history.

[iRFNA]

I didn't see anyone mentioning the fact that Bellurdan is a high mage as well, and probably uses rashan/ice magic? Perhaps he killed a'karonys after the nightchill was killed. Personally, I think this is roughly how it went:

Tay/a'karonys want nightchill to fail and die. Tay also wants to do some "cleaning up" or settling of old scores and picks other mages that he wants to fry in the confusion of the battle.

It seems most likely that tay was mostly dedicated to dealing with rake and only took out the easy targets (hairlock, calot) when he had a chance.

Since tay's bottled demons are already introduced quite a bit in GotM, there's no reason why it couldn't have been a'karonys who threw it, considering his proximity to nightchill, saving tay some significant effort and distraction. Demon enacts its version of the will it rip: elder god edition, but one audience member is slightly offended and happens to be a toblakai high mage. Now, GotM makes a point of saying that two balls of ice or something coldish shoot at moonspawn, and I always took that to mean that both nightchill and bellurdan shot one each, although that isn't necessarily specified. It'd seem odd if bellurdan was a high mage of skull crushing alone.

So I suppose a'karonys tries to back up tay with a tiste andii BBQ but cold vengeance is had by bellurdan. Welp.

This is the only story I can concoct that makes relatively enough sense to fit the events... I'm pretty sure tay (and dujek) lied, though, cause if he really did mess up tattersail's memories of the battle or whatever why would he make everything seem messier than before? And it's not like he got access to her right after the battle, when she talked to some BBs, and was acting on what she remembered to do things that she wouldn't have done otherwise.

edit:

It also seems pretty likely that laseen/tay didn't want to wipe out their most elite fighting force no matter how paranoid laseen was about WJ. Why bother when you're successfully grinding them into the deadliest fighting forces you can find until, presumably, they all die. It's not like the WJ or the BBs would refuse a battle (see suicidal darujhistan mission post-"betrayal").

I think rake fought back more than tay thought he was going to, as far as the cannon fodder on the surface was concerned. But it isn't obvious that falling rocks from moonspawn would be of sufficient force and weight to collapse tunnels very deep under pale, or that moonspawn would have stuck around long enough to shed a significant portion of its mass in order to do so. Strategically, ruining pale like that probably wasn't the plan anyway, since it would have been a great target as an unassailable forward base/supply storage/manufacturing and burning most of it to the ground, destroying a lot of the work-force, and filling the city with inconveniently placed rocks is a bit counter-productive to utilizing its value.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 21 October 2009 - 07:57 PM

[Urizen]

Silencer, on 04 October 2009 - 04:54 AM, said:

It's one of those things that is never resolved in-text. But you have to remember that Dujek and Whiskeyjack both accept Tayschrenn's explanation, the fact that his "role in things pas was...misunderstood". A temporary laying to rest in order to combat a larger danger? Perhaps. But you cannot dismiss out of hand that Hairlock hated Tay, that he worked on 'Sail,

Well, Who's to say that Tayschrenn, off stage, didn't work over Dujek to get him to accept Tay's version of events. After all Tattersail at one point in GOTM worries that Tay would force himself into their minds and learn about their plans, so Tay obviously has some mockra capabilities.

The only working of Tattersail that Hairlock did (that we have proof of) is with words. Personally I seriously doubt Hairlock after being cut in half has the power to keep himself alive and work over Tattersail.

[Mentalist]

Ice-magic has been (so far) in the series reserved exclusively for Jaghut and Stormriders.

I wouldn't expect Bellurdan to wield it.

[Silencer]

Wait a sec. Hairlock could have killed A'Karonys.

His warren is anathema to either Tay's or 'Sail's. And they are both fire/light. He could be Ruse (ice = cold = water), or he could be Rashan (darkness = cold), though both of those don't fit perfectly, they're close enough. That also explains Tay taking out Hairlock. Anyone have GotM to hand? I can check it later, but it's not right here.

If it goes Nightchill -> A'karonys -> Hairlock -> Calot (last two is irrelevant of order), then I'd say that's what happened. Also explains why Tay took the cadre out...and resolves the order of actions completely.

[T'renn]

I for one think the version Dujek gave was true.

It makes perfect sense for Night Chill to go after the sword to free her brother
That she takes out A'karonys when he has spoken out against her, with ice magic is only further proof (Rake is firing his stuff indiscriminately)
Tays going for Nightchill and her partner after that seems logical too.
If Tays thought members of the Cadre were involved he'd attack them as well.
And that while under assault of Rake, and keeping up the pounding at Moons Spawn with raw Telas, seems quite busy