[Venerus]

Forgiveness please if this has already been discussed; I can't seem to find a topic about it. Here goes:

HoC, pp. 584-585, starting with L'oric:

Quote

"Queen of Dreams, Kurald Thyrllan has lost its protector."
...
QoD: "so you have come to me, in the hopes that I will find a suitable... protector"
...
"This will take some time," she murmured. "the present vulnerability... will exist in the interval. I have someone in mind, but the shaping towards the opportunity remains distant. Nor do I think my choice will please you. In the meantime..."

tBH, 283:

Quote

"Leoman excaped."
"What?"
"He has escaped. Into the Warren of D'riss, under the protection of the Queen of Dreams -- only she knows, I suppose, what use he will be to her."

Dunsparrow and Leoman, shaped in the fires of Y'Ghatan?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The new protector of KT is probably Greyfrog whom L'oric chose as his new familiar. We don't know to what use for the QoD are Leoman and Dunsparrow.
Besides two normal humans(albeit one sanctioned to Hood) won't be much of a defence

[Venerus]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 21 September 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

The new protector of KT is probably Greyfrog whom L'oric chose as his new familiar. We don't know to what use for the QoD are Leoman and Dunsparrow.
Besides two normal humans(albeit one sanctioned to Hood) won't be much of a defence

I'm interested to know what you're basing this on. Why would you assume it was Greyfrog? I don't remember anything in the text suggesting L'oric made the same mistake twice, and he clearly gives the job of selecting a protector over to the QoD in HoC.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Venerus, on 22 September 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 21 September 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

The new protector of KT is probably Greyfrog whom L'oric chose as his new familiar. We don't know to what use for the QoD are Leoman and Dunsparrow.
Besides two normal humans(albeit one sanctioned to Hood) won't be much of a defence

I'm interested to know what you're basing this on. Why would you assume it was Greyfrog? I don't remember anything in the text suggesting L'oric made the same mistake twice, and he clearly gives the job of selecting a protector over to the QoD in HoC.

He's probably basing it on the fact that the old guardian of KT was L'oric's old familiar that was killed when the T'lan Imass visited. Then when L'oric talked to Osserc in that memory of Raraku, Osserc took him to the edge of the memory where demons would often show up/get sucked in somehow to get a new one. They found Greyfrog and took him back.

I don't remember the conversation between L'oric and the QoD that well cuz I haven't read the books in awhile, but I think that L'oric's plan was to use Greyfrog (at least when he was getting him).

[Urizen]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 September 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

Venerus, on 22 September 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 21 September 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

The new protector of KT is probably Greyfrog whom L'oric chose as his new familiar. We don't know to what use for the QoD are Leoman and Dunsparrow.
Besides two normal humans(albeit one sanctioned to Hood) won't be much of a defence

I'm interested to know what you're basing this on. Why would you assume it was Greyfrog? I don't remember anything in the text suggesting L'oric made the same mistake twice, and he clearly gives the job of selecting a protector over to the QoD in HoC.

He's probably basing it on the fact that the old guardian of KT was L'oric's old familiar that was killed when the T'lan Imass visited. Then when L'oric talked to Osserc in that memory of Raraku, Osserc took him to the edge of the memory where demons would often show up/get sucked in somehow to get a new one. They found Greyfrog and took him back.

I don't remember the conversation between L'oric and the QoD that well cuz I haven't read the books in awhile, but I think that L'oric's plan was to use Greyfrog (at least when he was getting him).

Nowhere in Loric's conversation with QoD does Greyfrog come up as the guardian. Osserec in that memory probably intended for L'oric to pick up a ramdom demon and then stick in KT as guardian but L'oric never gives any indication that he actually would do that.

This post has been edited by Urizen: 22 September 2009 - 10:04 PM

[Venerus]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 September 2009 - 09:55 PM, said:

I don't remember the conversation between L'oric and the QoD that well cuz I haven't read the books in awhile, but I think that L'oric's plan was to use Greyfrog (at least when he was getting him).

In my very first post, I put up the relevant parts of the discussion between L'oric and the QoD. L'oric clearly asks her help in finding a new guardian. If he was interested in using Greyfrog, it seems logical that he would have, instead of acquiring Greyfrog and *then* asking QoD for help.

It seems pretty obvious from the scene where his old familiar dies that L'oric doesn't want to put a familiar in that kind of risky situation again.

This post has been edited by Venerus: 23 September 2009 - 01:09 AM

[Hetan]

[quote name='Venerus] Dunsparrow and Leoman' date=' shaped in the fires of Y'Ghatan? [/quote']

They left - why would the fire have had an effect on them?

[Pilgrim]

I'm in the middle of a HOC re-read right now and Loric has already had his conversation with Qod, but has not yet had his conversation with Osric or gotten Greyfrog, so your perception of the timing is off. The conversation with QoD comes first, then L'oric goes out and finds Greyfrog later.


If I recall correctly from Bonehunters, Loric eventually goes back and retrieves Greyfrog after the "Unbound" debacle where everyone gets injured/killed, with the intent to return Greyfrog to Kurald Thyrllan to take his protector role.

This post has been edited by Pilgrim: 07 October 2009 - 09:41 PM

[D'rek]

Pilgrim, on 07 October 2009 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm in the middle of a HOC re-read right now and Loric has already had his conversation with Qod, but has not yet had his conversation with Osric or gotten Greyfrog, so your perception of the timing is off. The conversation with QoD comes first, then L'oric goes out and finds Greyfrog later.


If I recall correctly from Bonehunters, Loric eventually goes back and retrieves Greyfrog after the "Unbound" debacle where everyone gets injured/killed, with the intent to return Greyfrog to Kurald Thyrllan to take his protector role.

You're right on the timing bit. However, I don't think it's implicitly said that L'oric and Greyfrog were heading to KT after leaving Barathol's town. And if they were, it's definitely not said they're going to take the protector role...

[Venerus]

Hetan, on 05 October 2009 - 05:40 AM, said:

Venerus: Dunsparrow and Leoman, shaped in the fires of Y'Ghatan?

They left - why would the fire have had an effect on them?

Shaped as in influenced. Both characters thought about and planned the fire for quite a while, and presumably they know of its effects. I didn't meant to imply it was a Gesler/Stormy/Truth/Baudin-type of forging.

This post has been edited by Venerus: 09 October 2009 - 05:14 PM

[Venerus]

Pilgrim, on 07 October 2009 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm in the middle of a HOC re-read right now and Loric has already had his conversation with Qod, but has not yet had his conversation with Osric or gotten Greyfrog, so your perception of the timing is off. The conversation with QoD comes first, then L'oric goes out and finds Greyfrog later.

My bad on the timing, dunno how I messed that up...

Pilgrim, on 07 October 2009 - 09:37 PM, said:

If I recall correctly from Bonehunters, Loric eventually goes back and retrieves Greyfrog after the "Unbound" debacle where everyone gets injured/killed, with the intent to return Greyfrog to Kurald Thyrllan to take his protector role.

So, what makes you say that's Loric's intent? I don't see it in the writing anywhere in tBH. And if it isn't in the book, what makes you think he would? Why would he after giving the decision to the QoD, and why would he after regretting leaving his former familiar behind? I'm looking for textual answers here.

[Pilgrim]

I can't really think of anything in the text, been a while since I read it. I guess it's mostly an assumption based on the fact that Osric takes L'oric looking for a new protector in HoC, and they find Greyfrog. You know what happens when one assumes, huh?

Just figured after all the mess made of Greyfrog and his party, Loric was finally gonna "take him home" to assume his new position. Admittedly, speculation only...

Pilgrim

[Venerus]

Pilgrim, on 12 October 2009 - 08:24 PM, said:

I can't really think of anything in the text, been a while since I read it. I guess it's mostly an assumption based on the fact that Osric takes L'oric looking for a new protector in HoC, and they find Greyfrog. You know what happens when one assumes, huh?

Just figured after all the mess made of Greyfrog and his party, Loric was finally gonna "take him home" to assume his new position. Admittedly, speculation only...

Pilgrim

Hmm, so, looked up the passage with Google Books, now I'm questioning my own suggestions. Damnit.

p. 536, HoC, L'oric, Osric and Grayfrog:

Quote

"This one might suit Kurald Thyrllan," Osric said.
"What kind of demon is it?" L'oric asked, staring down at the creature.
"I have no idea," Osric replied. "Reach out to it. See if it is amenable."
"Assuming it has any mind at all," L'oric muttered, crouching down.
Can you hear me? Can you comprehend?
The four eyes blinked up at him. And it (greyfrog) replied. "Sorcerer. Declaration. Recognition. We were told you'd come, but so soon? Rhetorical."

So, yeah, Osric plainly states that he thinks L'oric is looking to put his familiar into the role of KT's protector, and if greyfrog was anticipating L'oric... that could easily be the QoD who told Greyfrog to expect L'oric. Although Osric could be wrong about L'oric's intentions, and it needn't be the QoD who told Greyfrog anything. Harumph.

Well damn. So it seems quite plausible that Greyfrog *is* the new protector, although I think there's some merit to the idea that Leoman and Dunsparrow are playing some role as well. I guess we'll see in tCG.

This post has been edited by Venerus: 15 October 2009 - 10:31 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

[/quote]Well damn. So it seems quite plausible that Greyfrog *is* the new protector, although I think there's some merit to the idea that Leoman and Dunsparrow are playing some role as well. I guess we'll see in tCG.
[/quote]

I think more likely that QoD wants to use them for her own personal needs, not a favor to L'oric because she was companions with his father for a time. Despite the large amount of followers many gods have I think having people actually owe them one is more meaningful to them.

[Roldom]

maybe greyfrog will be the new protector of KT but considering how easily he was cut up by the unbound would he offer much protection?

[Aptorian]

If Greyfrog was hooked up to the warren, using the warren as a powersource while guarding it, he would be freakishly strong.

[Red King]

Well, initially, i suspected that Greyfrog was indeed the new protector, mostly speculation rather then any hard evidence, it seemed it was implied by others that he was the new protector. However, their is the whole thing about how L'oric was keeping Felslin younger safe for the QoD. From that point, i imagined she was the potentially new protector through some means of the QoD. Can't for sure where this is, it drives from the incident after the unbound attack, and it seems to fall into place that she was the object of some ploy that the QoD had.

- Ultor

[Silk]

Felsin Younger assumed the role the QOD wished, however under the influence of teh CG rather than the QOD. This was mentioned in one of the books, can't remember at moment and am only on BH at moment in my re-read cycle.