[Aptorian]

Right, I'm not going to bother doing a complete reread to figure this out, and I may be miss remembering thing here and spinning a crazy theory, BUT...

I picked up the use of fire names a lot in this book, and I am wondering how many of the references are tied together.

The most important one I think was the meaning of Rud Ellale's draconean name: Fire Hands (or something like that I may be paraphrasing).

There was further mentions of fire hands through out the book. Wolf girl used it once I think.

Abyss just mentioned in the Ruthan Gudd thread, that Gudd thought about Fists of Fire in the sky. I seem to recall that line of thought was connected with the Jade trails on the sky. Which to me suggests that there might be an important connection there.

I also seem to recall the poet girl in the snake, badyalle or what ever she was called (I'm just gonna start calling here Balalalala soon) naming her crystal sword fire, but I may be mistaken and it was "Light" or something like that.

Anyway, did any one else pick up on the fire references? I had them in the back of my mind all through the read, maybe they were supposed to be connected with Sinn?

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't just willy nilly, especially the Rud Ellale's name. Hell, he's (in his own mind) already more powerful than Silchas Ruin. Badalle (that's her name) did name her sword Fire, also, iirc.

Fire is a common form of apocalyptic doom, and as I stated in my "Half Way Through" thread, Erikson does a magnificent job of conveying the feeling of dread and doom in this book, without outright saying it.

[Abyss]

It's interesting that there are so many instances where fire is a force for destruction, but 'ice' protects - Gudd's Stormrider gear, the 14 Jaghut.

Of course, there was also the unfortunate case of frostibite that killed the entire Barghast and Akyrnii armies.

- Abyss, skipping the obvious 'balls of fire' joke...

[MTS]

Sinn says her blood is on fire when she uses it in her journey. Olar Ethil is also connected with fire.

I have no idea what's going on with Sinn. It makes sense, if she's the fire godling, that she can use fire magic without a warren (as she does in the Azath), but the bit with the blood makes me think she has something to do with Iccy's warrens as well.

[vaiski]

And also Stormy and Gesler, forged by ancient fires according to Shi'Gal guy.

[Sinisdar Toste]

and pretty much anyone else who knows more than their names.

[HoosierDaddy]

Mappo, on 10 September 2009 - 05:05 AM, said:

Sinn says her blood is on fire when she uses it in her journey. Olar Ethil is also connected with fire.

I have no idea what's going on with Sinn. It makes sense, if she's the fire godling, that she can use fire magic without a warren (as she does in the Azath), but the bit with the blood makes me think she has something to do with Iccy's warrens as well.

Sinn remarks in the beginning of the book about how powerful the new warrens created by Iccy are, and how they could knock over gods by using them. Grub says he doesn't want to knock over gods, and that the warrens are slightly off, anyways. Sinn then says they should fix them. I'm fairly certain those two are tied into what Iccy did, Sinn obliterated 3 Skykeeps ffs. I don't think Tayschrenn could do that.

vaiski, on 10 September 2009 - 09:16 AM, said:

And also Stormy and Gesler, forged by ancient fires according to Shi'Gal guy.

Annealed in the fires of Thyrllan while traveling through the Nascent and exiting in the wake of Olar Ethil, who was suiting up.

[Urizen]

HoosierDaddy, on 11 September 2009 - 05:13 AM, said:

Sinn remarks in the beginning of the book about how powerful the new warrens created by Iccy are, and how they could knock over gods by using them. Grub says he doesn't want to knock over gods, and that the warrens are slightly off, anyways. Sinn then says they should fix them. I'm fairly certain those two are tied into what Iccy did, Sinn obliterated 3 Skykeeps ffs. I don't think Tayschrenn could do that.

To be fair to Tayschrenn, It's Sinn and Grub togheter doing the obliterating..

[HoosierDaddy]

Urizen, on 11 September 2009 - 07:16 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 11 September 2009 - 05:13 AM, said:

Sinn remarks in the beginning of the book about how powerful the new warrens created by Iccy are, and how they could knock over gods by using them. Grub says he doesn't want to knock over gods, and that the warrens are slightly off, anyways. Sinn then says they should fix them. I'm fairly certain those two are tied into what Iccy did, Sinn obliterated 3 Skykeeps ffs. I don't think Tayschrenn could do that.

To be fair to Tayschrenn, It's Sinn and Grub togheter doing the obliterating..

I disagree, it's Sinn doing the obliterating and Grub building the Azath Mountain.

[MTS]

Hoosier's right, Sinn is the one destroying the skykeeps, Grub doesn't do anything in that department.

[Ishael]

Mappo, on 11 September 2009 - 07:31 AM, said:

Hoosier's right, Sinn is the one destroying the skykeeps, Grub doesn't do anything in that department.

Was it not something along the lines two children waves of sorcery coming from both of them , at work no book to hand and wasnt the upside down rock tree and byproduct of iccy the errants eye and a fnnist

This post has been edited by Ishael: 11 September 2009 - 09:01 AM

[Cougar]

Regardless of the sorcery Sinn is the only one who can use fire warrens and the sky keeps explode in flames, grub uses Driss and/or Tennes plus possibly something Icarium has come up with, he can't detonante a sky keep. In fact I'd be surprised if someone using earth/rock magic can do anything that isn't attached to the ground or at leastmade of earth and rock.

Hence my idea in the other thread that Grubb was at least in part assisting the Azath to form the rock tree thing, whilst also repair/support Kalse Rooted.

[Urizen]

Ishael, on 11 September 2009 - 09:00 AM, said:

Mappo, on 11 September 2009 - 07:31 AM, said:

Hoosier's right, Sinn is the one destroying the skykeeps, Grub doesn't do anything in that department.

Was it not something along the lines two children waves of sorcery coming from both of them , at work no book to hand and wasnt the upside down rock tree and byproduct of iccy the errants eye and a fnnist

Here is the quote:

Quote

The four Nah'ruk sky keeps were engulfed in flames, reeling away from the gate. The fires brightened, and then, in a flash, burst incandescent white at their cores. As she watched, in horror, in wonder, the keeps seemed to be vaporizing before her eyes. Churning, the towering pillars of fire pitched eastward, beneath them the ground blackening with scorching heat.
Gunth Mach spoke in her mind. 'Destriant. See through my eyes. Do you see?'
'Yes' she whispered.
Two figures stood upon a torn, ruined ridge to the northwest. Sorcery poured from them in terrible waves.
A boy.
A girl.

This to me indicate that Sinn and Grub are working togheter, not that Sinn is destroying skykeeps while Grub is "buliding" the Azath. In fact the "Azath building" part is in my opinion all Iccy.

[Cougar]

It doesn't make sense though, Grub isn't manipulating fire, so unless he can manipulate the stone of the keeps he isn't destroying them, plus if he is destroying them by tearing the stone apart why bother with the fire?

Maybe someone should ask Steve at the fantasy con to clarify this scene.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 11 September 2009 - 02:03 PM

[Abyss]

It's a good question about the Azath... in GotM the Azath that shows up to grab Raest builds on his finnest, and the point is made that it's initiallt weak - if Tool and Paran hadn't helped, it could not have held the jaghut.

In RG it's Kettle who is the 'seed' carried from the original leth House, and the scabby soul knife finnest that 'activates' the Azath.

Before the Azath shows up in DoD, Iccy and Feather Witch do something to turn the Errant's eyeball into a finnest, and this triggers an Azath - a really BIG one.

There's clearly no hard and fast rule for Azath, but in GotM and RG the new Houses both start with roots. In DoD we get a big stone tree. I can see that in the Wastelands there were no roots to work with, and in theory the Errant is a HUGE power source for an Azath to build on, plus possibly the Uprooted, the new warrens and Iccy himself, hence the size and power of the new Azath.

But despite the earlier scene where Grub uses stone to block Sinn's fire, i didn't read any obvious link between Grub and the Azath, except that last time we saw him he was wandering new warrens by way of an Azath - that may be the link.


- Abyss, may be barking up the wrong Tree...

[HoosierDaddy]

Urizen, on 11 September 2009 - 10:22 AM, said:

Ishael, on 11 September 2009 - 09:00 AM, said:

Mappo, on 11 September 2009 - 07:31 AM, said:

Hoosier's right, Sinn is the one destroying the skykeeps, Grub doesn't do anything in that department.

Was it not something along the lines two children waves of sorcery coming from both of them , at work no book to hand and wasnt the upside down rock tree and byproduct of iccy the errants eye and a fnnist

Here is the quote:

Quote

The four Nah'ruk sky keeps were engulfed in flames, reeling away from the gate. The fires brightened, and then, in a flash, burst incandescent white at their cores. As she watched, in horror, in wonder, the keeps seemed to be vaporizing before her eyes. Churning, the towering pillars of fire pitched eastward, beneath them the ground blackening with scorching heat.
Gunth Mach spoke in her mind. 'Destriant. See through my eyes. Do you see?'
'Yes' she whispered.
Two figures stood upon a torn, ruined ridge to the northwest. Sorcery poured from them in terrible waves.
A boy.
A girl.

This to me indicate that Sinn and Grub are working togheter, not that Sinn is destroying skykeeps while Grub is "buliding" the Azath. In fact the "Azath building" part is in my opinion all Iccy.

This is actually correct. I'll quote the part in the story that explains it:

Quote

'You must build a wall -'

'A prison!'

Feather Witch hissed, 'Root and Blueiron,' Lifestealer! 'Ice Haunt [Ice Hold] is not enough! You must awaken the warrens within you! Root to the rock and earth [stone tree]. Blueiron to hold life in your machines [more "life" for the Azath to build on]. Command the breach!'

'I cannot hold. I am dying.'

'There are children in the world, Icarium.'

'Asane? You do not understand. You are not enough -'

'There are children in the world. The warrens you have made from your own blood -'

Feather Witch snarled. 'Our blood!'

'And ours, yes. The warrens, Icarium - did you imagine they belonged to you and none other? It is too late for that. This day is the day of fire, Icarium. The children wait. The children hear.'

In his mind, even as it crumbled on all sides, he could hear a new voice, a sweet voice, one he had never heard before. [Badelle]:

'I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held
The girl knows silence
Is a game [Sinn]
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al [Grub]
The mother of wheeling
Who seeds all time [Eres'al]
Through me they hear your need
I am the voice of the unborn
In crystal I see fire and I see smoke
I see lizards and Fathers
In crystal I see the boy and the girl.
Heal the wound, God.
Your children are close.' [Sinn and Grub and perhaps Badalle and the Snake in Icaria itself]

....

His hand closed about the eye and he heard the shriek of an Elder God, as he transformed the eye into what he needed. For Root.

A seed.
A Finnest.

....

Kalyth... saw stone burst upward from the plain, directly beneath kalse. The bedrock lifted like gnarled arms....

This clears up the mess, Sinn and Grub have unparalleled command of Icarium's warrens. All of them. They blew the shit out of the Nah'ruk Skykeeps when they 'heard' Badalle (who has a kickass voice, literally). Icarium built the Azath and used Errastas eye as the finnest to power it. Then, he disappears. No one left in the Azath. Meaning, I agree with those who have said he's off to go visit Gothos, or perhaps he could end up in Icaria.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 11 September 2009 - 10:06 PM

[flea]

Sorry for the hijack, but wtf is Featherwitch doing in this scene. How about a little Deux ex machina?

[HoosierDaddy]

Feather Witch was there all along, known as Breath (heehee, she drowned, get it?).

Ooooh, next post is the big 3000.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 12 September 2009 - 04:34 AM

[chaosek]

Any chance the Azath has to do with the house the one dude in the dragon realm built, with this Tiste Andii helping him? (haven't reread so bit shaky on names and stuff). I believe in that particular book it is said that their is this builder of Azath's and that it is a bad/interesting thing that now an Azath has been built in the dragon realm (at least I think it was that one).

[Sinisdar Toste]

mm its possible but i can't see any direct correlation atm, it would seem kinda random to me