[haroos]

i'm talking about tiste of all 3 races.
I understand that they are all imortal, but from things i've read in tth, i'm still not clear what they are.
i mean the part where endest silann says remembers witnessing the birth of the sun in the tiste homeworld.
life can not exist without heat, a sun, and so are they living beings ?
or spirits with flesh ?
his description in that same segment of the coming of shadow and light, implies that maybe the tiste world is like one of those dimension you may read about
in other fantasy books.
any ideas ?

[Aptorian]

Who says life cannot exist without heat or sun? It's a fantasy book. Andii live in Darkness, they're comfortable with that. Like Jaghuts and Ice, Dragons and fire, Kruppe and pastries.

I'm not quite sure about that immortal thing. Are they all immortal or just very long lived? I cant recall any Edur or Andii from before the sundering alive that isn't also soletaken or ascended or having been ghosted or cryogenically frozen. If they were all immortal there would be ridiculous over population sooner or later.

EDIT: Of course there is Endest... but he's a mage as well. They don't count

The Tiste people are just humanoids adapted to specific environments, namely the elements of light, dark and shadow. Think of them as alien Elves.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 01 September 2009 - 05:20 PM

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Sep 1 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Who says life cannot exist without heat or sun? It's a fantasy book. Andii live in Darkness, they're comfortable with that. Like Jaghuts and Ice, Dragons and fire, Kruppe and pastries.

I'm not quite sure about that immortal thing. Are they all immortal or just very long lived? I cant recall any Edur or Andii from before the sundering alive that isn't also soletaken or ascended or having been ghosted or cryogenically frozen. If they were all immortal there would be ridiculous over population sooner or later.

EDIT: Of course there is Endest... but he's a mage as well. They don't count

The Tiste people are just humanoids adapted to specific environments, namely the elements of light, dark and shadow. Think of them as alien Elves.

Well the Andii are at least very long-lived, not necessarily as long-lived as Korlat, Rake, etc. but long-lived enough to be perpetually bored with their lives. It never really says if Edur and Liosan are long-lived, but MT and RG certainly seems to give the impression that the Edur are more like humans in the way they live (families, lots of kids, etc) than the Andii, plus none of them ever reflect back more than a handful of decades, so they seem to be short-lived, though not necessarily as much as humans.


re: the Sun in Galain bit - by Endest's own view of things that wasn't even necessarily the real beginning of Light, just the manifestation of Light and Dark beginning to interact (element-wise).

[chill]

Aptorian, on 01 September 2009 - 05:19 PM, said:

I cant recall any Edur or Andii from before the sundering alive that isn't also soletaken or ascended or having been ghosted or cryogenically frozen. If they were all immortal there would be ridiculous over population sooner or later.

Anomander's brother?

And I don't think they would overpopulate the world, as they seem to be disinterested in making babies, Tiste Andi at least.

By the way, was there ever an Andi - Liosan war? As darkness is directly opposed to the light, and Anomander and Osserc clashed a couple of times, it would seem reasonable those two people would be bitter enemies, but I can't recall if that war ever happened.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i dont think we've ever had a scene directly involving a andii liosan war, but from the entire series you get the feel that if they ever laid eyes on each other, killing would ensue.

DoD Spoiler:

Spoiler

i mean look at the first shore, the first andii and liosan were probably like arsenic to each other. the first shore is the most primal gate we've seen yet. and you can't deny that it is a gate.

[Imperial Historian]

As I recall the edur are definitely reffed as mortal, but there lifespans are quite long. I can't find an exact quote at the minute, but I believe the average lifespan of an edur was something of the order of a few hundred years, so more than a human, but less than andii, who though not immortal seem to have lifespans in the thousands of years.

We've seen a few exceptional inidviduals who have survived hundreds of thousands of years, but I think most andii have lifespans shorter than this. The liosan lifespan has not been mentioned, but I would expect it would be similar to the andii, with the edur having shorter lifespans as they are not pure... similar to half-breed tiste having shorter lifespans.

[Aptorian]

chill, on 06 September 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 01 September 2009 - 05:19 PM, said:

I cant recall any Edur or Andii from before the sundering alive that isn't also soletaken or ascended or having been ghosted or cryogenically frozen. If they were all immortal there would be ridiculous over population sooner or later.

Anomander's brother?

He had ascendant blood, and with his denial of that blood he had aged visibly to the point of being unable to survive the fight.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

chill, on 06 September 2009 - 10:00 AM, said:

[By the way, was there ever an Andi - Liosan war? As darkness is directly opposed to the light, and Anomander and Osserc clashed a couple of times, it would seem reasonable those two people would be bitter enemies, but I can't recall if that war ever happened.

Well the Tiste Liosan in HoC said that they hated the Andii because they didn't know the touch of the Father(or something like that) and that they accepted the Edur as an inferior race because they were half and half. So one would presume that contacts between Andii and Liosan weren't peaceful.

[D'rek]

Some Andii (probably Endest) recalls that Andii and Liosan armies fought in KE, but who knows if they fought in KG or KL. If they ever ran into each other in the malaziworld they most certainly would have.

[WWQBD?]

Been awhile. Alas, life caught up with me, but I read this and had to respond.

I think what gives the Andii specifically so much appeal is there distinction from humanity, beginning with their birth in the dark. Mother Dark and all that.

It's pure ancient myth. It's the old "something before nothing or nothing before something," which came first, the chicken or the egg sort of thing?

Many cultures believe that the world started in darkness, and that light was a gift to we mere mortals. In a way, the Tiste Andii are the creatures that were here before, and the Tiste Liosan are the bringers of the light. Hmmm...brings Lucifer to mind, from Christianity, punished for bringing humans fire (another common story!). Anyway...the Liosan were the life-giving light, and yet they have less interaction with humans! And those born of both, the Edur, they are the most human-like.

I think the trinity of Tiste is one of the most appealing parts of the stories, watching how they interact (or not) and view the world...

[HoosierDaddy]

For those doubting the life spans of Andii, show me evidence of an Andii that is lessened by age, as a human would be. Or is somehow less efficacious because of age as opposed to apathy. I view them in the classical elf sense, immortal but from violence. It just so happens violence didn't take long to start amongst them.

In fact, give me proof of an "old Edur" in Midnight Tides or Reapers Gale. They might not be immune to violence, but I don't think that means they aren't immune to time.

[Silencer]

Endest is incredibly old. The oldest surviving Andii from the time before their departure from KG. And his body is failing him. Korlat implies that the Andii who fell in the war with the Malazans only died because they decided to, but that was in reference to their combat skills. Andarist degenerated from the moment he rejected Tiam's blood, implying that Andii themselves are not immortal, only incredibly long-lived.
Andii age, but it is clear from their chronic ennui and apathy that they are ancient. I would wager that an Andii lifespan draws out to the tens of thousands, barring wounds or sickness, or indeed giving up. The only ones who live longer than this are those with soletaken or ascendant blood.

[HoosierDaddy]

Both those examples are from Andii who have basically given up though, Silencer. Silann thought he was worthless as a mage anymore after holding out the water in MoI, and yet, at the end of all things he was far more strong than he thought was still possible. Andarist had for all intents and purposes been destroyed at the death of his wife, and was simply holding on until he died in combat.

So, perhaps some are susceptible to the weight of eons, but that doesn't mean that all are, only those we've seen. I'm not saying that you aren't perhaps right, I just would like more than an Andii who has given up on their life as an example (granted, we might not have a non-Soletaken example of this).

[Urizen]

I distinctely remember reading (in TTH during a conversation between Rake and Endest i think) on how Spinnock remember Kharkanas. This would indicate that Spinnock and others Andi who have "only" Andii blood not neccessarly are weakend by old age.

Of course Spin might actually be Soletaken Eleint since we are one Tiste Andi Soletaken short. In GOTM there are four black dragons helping Silanah battle Raest and only three have been identifed; Korlat, Orfantal and Serrat. Spin in TTH do remember seeing the Raest/Silanah battle yet the only people around are the Dragons, Great Ravens, and maybe K'rul and Kruppe.

[Circle Breaker]

WWQBD?, on 08 September 2009 - 05:10 AM, said:

It's pure ancient myth. It's the old "something before nothing or nothing before something," which came first, the chicken or the egg sort of thing?

Many cultures believe that the world started in darkness, and that light was a gift to we mere mortals.

This reminds me of a line in one of the earlier books, from Edgewalker I think, about Andii not really being the first beings around, thus implying that something predated even the darkness.

Urizen, on 08 September 2009 - 08:09 AM, said:

I distinctely remember reading (in TTH during a conversation between Rake and Endest i think) on how Spinnock remember Kharkanas.

Having read the passage a while back, Endest was wondering about making his pilgrim and telling Rake how Spinnock had spoken about the river reminding him of Dorssan Ryl in Kharkanas back in his youth, thus making Spinnock several hundred thousand years old as well.

This post has been edited by Circle Breaker: 09 September 2009 - 01:08 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I thought, and this could be my cracked brain, that Endest Silann remarked how the sorcery had withered him... Or the weight of it had, or something related to Moon's Spawn.

And I tended to go with them being immortal, save by violence as someone else posted above... And I think aging applies in the same way. The High Priestess of the temple didn't seem aged, and she had obviously been around for a while as well.

[beru]

DoD SPOILER

Spoiler

edur might be "short lived beacuse the human (shake) blood in them... just a idea)

[HoosierDaddy]

beru, on 11 September 2009 - 07:21 AM, said:

DoD SPOILER

Spoiler

edur might be "short lived beacuse the human (shake) blood in them... just a idea)

Massive DoD spoiler:

Spoiler

The Shake are the natural first born of Shadow with the Edur having overthrown them. The Human Shake were short lived because they were basically human, but the original Shake were the rulers and protectors of Emurlahn, prior to the coming of the Edur.