[Abyss]

The KC are 'aliens', after all and afawk. No reason their mojo should work the same way as anyone else.

That said, i like the theory that it's Serc and related to someone offing Sorrit, altho iirc, in TB Mappo and Iccy figured it was Edur, not Kchain.

Also in TB the whole 'lost elementals' thing was raised, and that was pretty open to virtually anything having a manifest aspect, so why not gravity?

- Abyss, defies gravity.

[coltainereborn]

Very early in GoTM, I think it Tattersail, QB, and a few others are talking about the re-emergence of the Shadow Warren, and she says something about how a lot of Warrens were begun but died off somehow.. and this is seen throughout the books-old warrens die, or are lost, and new warrens come into being. It's also Interesting that Moons Spawn, was used by the Tiste Andi all those years- did it run itself, or was it the TA mages who kept it running(like Endest Silann when he hides it in Coral Bay)

Also, wasn't Serc the Warren of Air, in MOI,QB becomes light as a feather, and can see and ride the air currents as I recall

[HoosierDaddy]

It pretty much just worked on its own... someone comments on the fact that Rake doesn't know half of what it is capable of.

[Aptorian]

I think those houses, or rather cards, were associated with specific ascendants. And when those ascendants disappear or die, the cards and small houses become inactive.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 03 July 2009 - 07:00 PM

[Abyss]

coltainereborn, on Jul 3 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

Very early in GoTM, I think it Tattersail, QB, and a few others are talking about the re-emergence of the Shadow Warren, and she says something about how a lot of Warrens were begun but died off somehow.. and this is seen throughout the books-old warrens die, or are lost, and new warrens come into being.

Aptorian, on Jul 3 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

I think those houses, or rather cards, were associated with specific ascendants. And when those ascendants disappear or die, the cards and small houses become inactive.

Apt is apt. iirc Tattersail refers to various Houses that have come and gone, not warrens. In theory there are any number of transient warrens running around... Iccy's arrows, Karsa's super mysterious Toblakai warren, each Azath House, the Whirlwind which was a stray chunk of KE... so i agree that warrens come and go, but with respect to the Deck, Tattersail was referring to 'Houses' in the sense that one or more ascendents tried to set themselves up as powers and failed for whatever (typically violent) reason.

Quote

It's also Interesting that Moons Spawn, was used by the Tiste Andi all those years- did it run itself, or was it the TA mages who kept it running(like Endest Silann when he hides it in Coral Bay)

Also, wasn't Serc the Warren of Air, in MOI,QB becomes light as a feather, and can see and ride the air currents as I recall

Rake and co obviously have some control over Moon's Spawn, because they make it move where they need it to go. Someone somewhere suggests that Rake had no idea of the real power the skykeep had, but then, it's not like that was enough to save the Kchain during the Tiste invasion or the Nahruk rebellion.

Endest holding the water out in the bay was strictly his own strength - as an aside i really liked how SE used that point to make it clear Endest was once a KG heavyweight. It set the stage nicely for him holding off the Dying God at the end.



- Abyss, ...is a brick... house...

[coltainereborn]

Ahh yes, the Houses. That makes a lot more sense(way to go brain, its not like I just read it yesterday)

and I'm with you @abyss about setting up Endest Silann for his show down with the dying god. goes to show that even super powerful mages can have crises of confidence. Also shows again what a great leader Rake was, how he gave ES some time and space to get his shit together so he could be in place when he was needed. Nimander has some big ol shoes to fill.

[Jorram]

Just for reference, it was, I believe, Osserc in the convo with L'oric who said the stuff about Rake not really understanding Moon's Spawn. He went on how they found it (or more of them) on the northerns shore of wheresoever and drove it south and Osserc studied it etc

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'Scabby murders Edur royal family, KE starts to shatter - civil war in KG as Mommy D gets her freak on with FL and ignores everyone - Silch and Scabby make a deal - Tiste invasion and war vs Kchain - Kchain civil war vs Nahruk at same time - Scabby attacks Matrons, Matron does 'death cry' thing, MD made vulnerable to Chaos - Draconus 'hides' MD in Dragnipur to protect her from Chaos/KChain death spell - Rake takes Dragnipur from Draconus - Drac, rake and others realize the whole 'hide MD in the sword'thing isn't working - Rake works his mojo, frees MD from sword, threat is ended'.

There's a fair bit of inconsistency considering the beginning of this timeline. In TtH, in the scene with MD forsaking Rake (one of the unfortunately heavily underwritten scenes in my nsho) she speaks of "the new ones", whose destiny will now be stained with blood and wars. Seemed to me then she is referring to the Liosan, but it is far more likely she is actually referring to the Edur.

Given all the "eternal dark and light blabla" shit in the RotCG prologue, I figure the Light DID always exist, as much as the Liosan, but MD's union with FL created the Edur.
So seems to be correct timeline is:

Dark/Light exist -> MD embraces FL and creates the Edur race -> Civil war breaks in KG -> Rake leaves KG with a lot of Andii -> Back in KE time passes, Scabby kills some random nice people -> KE shatters -> Dragons interfere -> Edur leave KE and go to Wu, same time as Silchas and his Andii (for some reason Rake and Osserc are already there) -> Rake goes clean KE -> Tiste war with KCCM........ rest is fairly set and done.

Let's not forget that the scene is Kharkanas is NOT a retelling. It actually happened and it must be considered cannon just as much as the MT prologue, for instance. Therefore it's not likely the civil war and the whole MD forsaking her children episode happened prior to the Edur's creation.

I choose to ignore Trull's tale to Onrack about Edur history, with Andii and Edur battling on KE grounds, as it seems to be mostly inconsistent, though maybe there's a truth there as well.

There's also the mysterious episode in RotCG with Osserc and Rake finding some (presumably Kurland Emurlahn) crystals, manifesting somewhere (maybe on a warren boundary). Initially I figured this would be Dragon's blood aspected to Emurlahn, but on a second thought this event seems to have happened before K'rul's bargain.

In fact, I was never sure if K'rul's bargain created the new (human-aspected, lesser, Houses, Deck) warrens or the old (Elder, Holds, Tiles) warrens, barring KG and SD who were apparently there and whom all the others somehow draw upon (cf. the metaphor with K'rul's heart as seen by Envy in MoI).

[Aelthain]

My view of the KCCM issue is that they are gravity-aspected. Some form of anti-gravity tech or something.

The link with the ending of existence is through one of the scientific theories where the whole universe doesn't expand indefinitely and will eventually collapse upon itself from its gravitational pull.

Therefore, I don't think KCCM will actually be directly related to the end of existence, but by being gravity-aspected, they are linked to its end.