[coltainereborn]

I was going to post this in the MT forum since that is where I found the passage, but I put it here so people could bring in other books to the conversation.

When the brothers Sengar are sent down into the valley containing the bones of Scabandari Bloodeye, pretty early in MT, Fear gives his brothers a brief history lesson- about the KCCM and when the Edur first came to this world. But he reveals alot about the KCCM magic- how it holds their fortresses afloat etc.

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'Kaschan(KCCM) sorcery,' Fear said after a time, 'is born of sounds our ears cannot hear, formed into words that loosen the bindings that hold all matter together, that hold it to the ground. Sounds that bend and stretch light, as a tidal inflow up a river is drawn apart at the moment of turning. With this sorcery, they fashioned fortresses of stone that rode the sky like clouds. With this sorcery, they turned Darkness in upon itself with a hunger none who came too close could defy, an all devouring hunger that fed first and foremost on itself....Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague. Thus was sealed the gate from Kurald Galain to every other realm. Thus was light Mother Dark driven into the very core of the Abyss, witness to an endless swirl of light surrounding her-all that she would one day devour, until the last speck of mattr vanishes into her. Annihilating Mother Dark. Thus the Kaschan, who are long dead, set upon Mother Dark a ritual that will end in her murder. When all Light is gone. When there is naught to cast Shadow, and so Shadow too is doomed to die.
....'The end, the death of the abyss, cannot be averted.... The Kaschan locked all things into mortality, into the relentless plunge toward extinction..
A distant death, aye. More distant than one could imagine. Yet it will come....
The Tiste invasions dorve the Kaschan to their last act. Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant. Because of the Kaschan ritual, the eternal game among Dark, Light, and Shadow would one day end. And with it all of existence.'

chapter three, Midnight Tides

Sorry the quotes a bit long, I tried to edit some of the less important parts. But I thought this was incredible for a number of reasons.



So the KCCM sorcery is based on sound(which is wicked cool) but it explains alot of what the KCCM do, that they use to not only float their Sky Fortresses, but probably to enter other realms( a guess), and apparantly made a black hole which they then sent into KG, which will eventually swallow everything and be the end of all existence. But... Fear believes that the KCCM are enitrely gone from the world( which we know is not true) so is it possible that this is a major plot line, given that KCCM are back, will they try to fix it? or is it something so far in the future as to be worried about only by gods, godesses, and other immortals?

Also it shows the beginning of the problems with KG, which led to Mother Dark fleeing and the Andi being dispossessed.

It also explains why the immortals were so pissed at Bloodeye, and why they tracked him down and killed him. It wasn't the betrayal, I always thought the other Elder gods etc. took it a little personally. I'll have to read that prologue which shows Kilamandros finishing him off again to see if it says anything about it.

And, once again, its a detail that just shows the size and scope of SE's imagination, which once again leaves me shaking my head and thanking all the gods he wrote these books.

[Deragoth]

You sure he isn't just using "sound" as a word to fill in for something he doesn't understand? I doubt its sonic/vibration based... would be cool, but I don't think he was being literal with the sound reference.


edit: I always assumed it was more gravity based... maybe force based... that would be cool. Electromagnetic, strong/weak nuclear force with gravity thrown in.

Damn... KCCM have the G.U.T.! !!!

This post has been edited by Deragoth: 01 July 2009 - 09:56 PM

[Illuyankas]

Gravity is my preferred explanation for the KCCM magic.

[coltainereborn]

yes, gravity based sorcery, but how do they manipulate gravity? with thoughts and wishes? or is there a physical aspect to their sorcery, sound waves shaping gravity to what they want?

[Illuyankas]

I would go with the magic effecting gravity directly while they've described it using sound as an analogy for a universal force they have no idea about.

[lobo the wolfman]

I think the reason for the Elder gods being so pissed off at bloodeye was because, when he betrayed and murdered the royal family of Edur, it started off the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That's probably it. Or maybe he was causing a bit too much noise (relatively speaking) and they decided to put him in his place.

[coltainereborn]

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 1 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I think the reason for the Elder gods being so pissed off at bloodeye was because, when he betrayed and murdered the royal family of Edur, it started off the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn.

I thought that the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn was WHY the tiste were invading a new world- their own realm was under attack and in trouble. And Bloodeye was the royal family of Edur- he is Father Shadow. Silchas Ruin was Andi
And although characters are often mistaken in their information, Fear does say that the KCCM set in motion the destruction of all existence, as a result of their own extinction, and Bloodeye was the only one left at that point to answer for it

[lobo the wolfman]

Bloodeye may have been part of the royal family, personally i don't think he was, but he was not the ruler of shadow. Not in the same way that Rake is for the Andii or Osserc is for the liosan. That 'Father Shadow' stuff was just Bloodeye blowing his own trumpet, and over the years the remaining Edur started to believe it. The Edur also believe that the sisters are his daughters as well (Menandore, Sukul and Sheltatha) but that's also bullshit. Most of what the Edur believe has to be taken with a grain of salt. I can't remember if it even is a given if the KCCM set out to end all existence or if they had another purpose in mind.

From Cotillions talk with the 3 dragons in Shadow (THB) it is stated that Bloodeye was the cause of the sundering when he killed the real rulers. The Edur then started to leave and come to Wu. Ruin's Andii where also leaving their home warren due to MD turning away from them.

[D'rek]

coltainereborn, on Jul 2 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 1 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I think the reason for the Elder gods being so pissed off at bloodeye was because, when he betrayed and murdered the royal family of Edur, it started off the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn.

I thought that the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn was WHY the tiste were invading a new world- their own realm was under attack and in trouble. And Bloodeye was the royal family of Edur- he is Father Shadow. Silchas Ruin was Andi
And although characters are often mistaken in their information, Fear does say that the KCCM set in motion the destruction of all existence, as a result of their own extinction, and Bloodeye was the only one left at that point to answer for it

He's not really Father Shadow though, that's just a name used by the Tiste Edur he lead into the malaziworld (and generations later they may actually believe he is the equivalent to MD and FL now). There may not even be a true Father Shadow.

Nor was he of the royal family of Edur (assumedly the Edur equivalent to Rake, Andarist, Silchas and their descendants among the Andii), Scabby was just an ambitious and powerful Edur. He murdered the true royal family of the Edur which set in motion the sundering of Emurlahn. Then he lead some of the Edur into the malaziworld with Silchas and his Andii.

[Wampyry]

I am sure Erikson will come up with a reasonable explanaion as to how the KCCM magic is going to end everything. I don't know shit about physics, but I can come up with a scenaro, while nonsense, it might work:

KCCM sends out their sound magic to the stars at a faster rate than the stars are moving. This magic stops the acceleration of the stars. They lose energy of motion and become lighter, eventually merging into one big star with a tremendous gravity pull. This pull catches up with the KCCM magic and more and more stars are pulled into the star with the big gravational pull and the cycle continues until the only star left feeds on itself and then BANG. Probally take a few days, months even. Told you it was nonsense.

As far as Scabby goes think his Edur and Rake's Andii destroyed the KCCM on Wu. Lether was gone and Morn only had a small contingent. KCCM felt, "Hey if we are dying so will everything else" Spiteful bastards!

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 02 July 2009 - 05:09 PM

[chill]

Well, if they created a black hole that will destroy all universe, the only creature that knows enough about KCCM to stop it is an insane matron. Or maybe Kallor.

Or maybe Anomander pulls something off since he's with the MD now.

[Urizen]

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 01:58 PM, said:

coltainereborn, on Jul 2 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 1 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I think the reason for the Elder gods being so pissed off at bloodeye was because, when he betrayed and murdered the royal family of Edur, it started off the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn.

I thought that the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn was WHY the tiste were invading a new world- their own realm was under attack and in trouble. And Bloodeye was the royal family of Edur- he is Father Shadow. Silchas Ruin was Andi
And although characters are often mistaken in their information, Fear does say that the KCCM set in motion the destruction of all existence, as a result of their own extinction, and Bloodeye was the only one left at that point to answer for it

He's not really Father Shadow though, that's just a name used by the Tiste Edur he lead into the malaziworld (and generations later they may actually believe he is the equivalent to MD and FL now). There may not even be a true Father Shadow.

Lately I'm started to wonder if Edgewalker might not be the equivalent to MD and FL.

[coltainereborn]

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

coltainereborn, on Jul 2 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 1 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

I think the reason for the Elder gods being so pissed off at bloodeye was because, when he betrayed and murdered the royal family of Edur, it started off the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn.

I thought that the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn was WHY the tiste were invading a new world- their own realm was under attack and in trouble. And Bloodeye was the royal family of Edur- he is Father Shadow. Silchas Ruin was Andi
And although characters are often mistaken in their information, Fear does say that the KCCM set in motion the destruction of all existence, as a result of their own extinction, and Bloodeye was the only one left at that point to answer for it

He's not really Father Shadow though, that's just a name used by the Tiste Edur he lead into the malaziworld (and generations later they may actually believe he is the equivalent to MD and FL now). There may not even be a true Father Shadow.

Nor was he of the royal family of Edur (assumedly the Edur equivalent to Rake, Andarist, Silchas and their descendants among the Andii), Scabby was just an ambitious and powerful Edur. He murdered the true royal family of the Edur which set in motion the sundering of Emurlahn. Then he lead some of the Edur into the malaziworld with Silchas and his Andii.

OK, I had completely forgotten that bit(I cant even remember what book it was in- BH? RG?) Did it mention who the royal family was? That definately makes sense given how ignorant the Edur are to their own history. It makes it tough to tell what was made up and what really happened.

As to the KCCM using sound.. The only reason I found that really cool was that I knew a guy when I was in college(like ten years ago) who was doing experiments with sound and natural frequencies. Have you ever seen the video of a suspension bridge twisting back and forth like its really windy? it wasn't- somehow the vibrations of the road caught the same natural frequency of the bridge and caused it to shake really bad. Everything has a natural frequency. Long story short, one of the things that people who study this theorize is that with the right sound waves you could float things, or shake them apart or hold them together... maybe a bit of a stretch to apply it to the KCCM, but it caught my eye- since I've always wondered what exactly KCCM magic was based on.

[Abyss]

I always firgured the course of events was 'Scabby murders Edur royal family, KE starts to shatter - civil war in KG as Mommy D gets her freak on with FL and ignores everyone - Silch and Scabby make a deal - Tiste invasion and war vs Kchain - Kchain civil war vs Nahruk at same time - Scabby attacks Matrons, Matron does 'death cry' thing, MD made vulnerable to Chaos - Draconus 'hides' MD in Dragnipur to protect her from Chaos/KChain death spell - Rake takes Dragnipur from Draconus - Drac, rake and others realize the whole 'hide MD in the sword'thing isn't working - Rake works his mojo, frees MD from sword, threat is ended'.

Now, there is another threat that's been hinted at which seems like what the 14th and co are going to be dealing with in DoD/TCG. Hedge says to Fiddler under YGhatan in TB that Fid has to carry the BBs with him 'to the end'.

So there are still at least one 'end of the world' level threat out there - whether it's the KC we see in the prologue, the Jade chunks, the CG, or some combo of all of them remains to be seen.

BUT, imnsho, the 'Matron's Death Cry gravity bomb throw MD under the chaos train' plotline is done. For now.


- Abyss, also thinks it's gravity, btw, not sound. explains the skykeeps.

[coltainereborn]

Thanks Abyss, that's a pretty good summary, I don't think I'd put all those pieces together so well.

(and I think that they are only using sound to manipulate gravity, like when they float their sky keeps, or when Icarium and Mappo explore the crashed skykeep and can float around. and no. I don't know why I can't let this go

[foolio]

Quote

I am sure Erikson will come up with a reasonable explanaion as to how the KCCM magic is going to end everything. I don't know shit about physics, but I can come up with a scenaro, while nonsense, it might work:

I am glad I am not the only one who does not really understand Fears explanation

Quote

OK, I had completely forgotten that bit(I cant even remember what book it was in- BH? RG?) Did it mention who the royal family was?

I am guessing that the undead soltaken dragon from ToTH is/was a member of the royal family...

Quote

Lately I'm started to wonder if Edgewalker might not be the equivalent to MD and FL.

Interesting

This post has been edited by foolio: 02 July 2009 - 08:18 PM

[D'rek]

Quote

I am sure Erikson will come up with a reasonable explanaion as to how the KCCM magic is going to end everything. I don't know shit about physics, but I can come up with a scenaro, while nonsense, it might work:

Or it could be magic...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

As a particle approached the speed of light, it's mass increases proportionately towards the infinite. So, if the Matrons are capable of firing a magical blast at the speed of light, it will develop enough mass to have a huge gravitational pull, and suck everything near into it, destroying it. That's how I'd guess KCCM gravity magic would work, anyhow, based on A-level physics I paid very little attention to.

For the final death-spell, it would just need the creation of a huuuuge black hole. If you can already manipulate gravity, that wouldn't be very hard at all (as a black hole is merely an enormous gravity source, in essence). I'm not sure how Burn/Wu exists within space, but presumably it's in a galaxy, and most galaxies have supermassive black holes at the centre. With that in mind, a mere slight upset of the gravitational balance in the galaxy can tip the balance and cause the black hole to be able to suck in the planets previously outside its reach and grow, consuming certainly the known galaxy, including Burn/Wu, thus ending existence in any real sense for the inhabitants we've come across.

[tiam]

alot of the elder warrens seem to have modern perspectives, the usual thyr thyrllan things, so could the KCCM simply be using high serc or at least some form of it. We never see sec being used bar QB flying around in MOI. Now theres that other quote in MOI thats says one of QB souls could call down lightning from the sky etc but could this not perhaps be a new more refined ala holds to warren invention.

Just seem a bit odd for SE to throw a new type of magic up and one of the reasoons i like these is that magic in this series is structured and theres no surprises bar a few like beak which at least are understandable