[XIcy Hot Patchx]

I think that throughout my reading I have encountered situations where each of them have called each other sir. I even remember reading a part where the Shield Anvil calls a messenger sir. Are they all of equal rank? It seems to me like it would be Mortal Sword>Shield Anvil and Destrient (sp?).

[Illuyankas]

Pretty sure it went Mortal Sword > Shield Anvil = Destriant, but the sir thing is just their universal term of address.

[Abyss]

Actually, iirc it was a bit more specific. The MS was in charge for all things martial, the Destriant for all things spiritual, and the SA, in some way, was equal to both.

The 'Sir' thing was entirely a form of address. At one point Itkovian addresses the Recruit as 'Sir'.


- Abyss, aka 'Sir'.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jun 29 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

Actually, iirc it was a bit more specific. The MS was in charge for all things martial, the Destriant for all things spiritual, and the SA, in some way, was equal to both.

The 'Sir' thing was entirely a form of address. At one point Itkovian addresses the Recruit as 'Sir'.


- Abyss, aka 'Sir'.

I get the feeling they are all more or less equal but defer to each other for each others' specific domains and responsibilities. This is evident with the Destriant for things spiritual, and likewise the Mortal Sword is the one who enacts the Reve for acts of punishment, but there are some other strange ones, like the SA (if not always, in this case) was the strategist so Brukhalian lead the soldiers in person following Itkovian's directions for the shaping of the battle.

[naotom]

In chapter 7, when Karnadas and Brukhalian first respond to Quick's invitation, Bruk (MS) says "Your invitation has been answered by Destriant Karnadas -who stands beside me- at my request. I command the Grey Swords--"

Don't know how much should be read into that but just thought I'd add it to the discusssion

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Besides when the Capustan Prince confronts Itkovian and tells him to reveal everything they know next time, Itkovian thinks that he would have done it but it's the MS wishes that count not his. This would confirm that Brukalian is the highest ranking among the Grey Swords.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 06 July 2009 - 10:36 AM

[D'rek]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Jul 6 2009, 06:35 AM, said:

Besides when the Capustan Prince confronts Itkovian and tells him to reveal everything they know next time, Itkovian thinks that he would have done it but it's the MS wishes that count not his. This would confirm that Brukalian is the highest ranking among the Grey Swords.

Insofar as politics and contacting foreign armies is concerned anyway... but yeah I concur, just being beary pedantic.

[Abyss]

D'rek, on Jun 29 2009, 08:31 PM, said:

I get the feeling they are all more or less equal but defer to each other for each others' specific domains and responsibilities. This is evident with the Destriant for things spiritual, and likewise the Mortal Sword is the one who enacts the Reve for acts of punishment, but there are some other strange ones, like the SA (if not always, in this case) was the strategist so Brukhalian lead the soldiers in person following Itkovian's directions for the shaping of the battle.

I could be wrong but wasn't it Itkovian who enacted the Reve on Rath'Fener, after Bruk' died in the ambush?

naotom, on Jul 5 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

In chapter 7, when Karnadas and Brukhalian first respond to Quick's invitation, Bruk (MS) says "Your invitation has been answered by Destriant Karnadas -who stands beside me- at my request. I command the Grey Swords--"

Don't know how much should be read into that but just thought I'd add it to the discusssion

'command' can be taken a couple of ways. That said, Piggy was the God of War, not theology or self-flaggelation, so it makes sense for his MS/Champion/Knight to command.

- Abyss, bears down further.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jul 6 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jun 29 2009, 08:31 PM, said:

I get the feeling they are all more or less equal but defer to each other for each others' specific domains and responsibilities. This is evident with the Destriant for things spiritual, and likewise the Mortal Sword is the one who enacts the Reve for acts of punishment, but there are some other strange ones, like the SA (if not always, in this case) was the strategist so Brukhalian lead the soldiers in person following Itkovian's directions for the shaping of the battle.

I could be wrong but wasn't it Itkovian who enacted the Reve on Rath'Fener, after Bruk' died in the ambush?

He wanted to, but Rath'Fener declared that he couldn't invoke the Reve, only a MS could, at which point Gruntle stepped in and did so.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Erm, I think you're confused. Gruntle did ask if any Mortal Sword could do but Itkovian said that it had to do with Fener and did it anyway, probably because he knew that Rath'Fener was bluffing about being a Destriant.

[Sanctume]

Looking at how Treach just acsended, he started with a Mortal Sword with no Destriant or Shield Anvil.
I would conclude Mortal Sword > (Destriant = Shield Anvil)

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

ATTENTION: Wise Kruppe Has Something to Bray!

Sanctume, on Jul 7 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

Looking at how Treach just acsended, he started with a Mortal Sword with no Destriant or Shield Anvil.
I would conclude Mortal Sword > (Destriant = Shield Anvil)

Kruppe is in unqualified agreement with your assessment of this thorny kwestion (unless, of course, no parallels whatsoever may be drawn betwixt possibly vastly disparate hierarchical systems employed among this or that Reve).

Having said that, Kruppe arrives at the succulent marrow of his post, to wit, Kruppe's extreme admiration and undying affection for the Gray Swords. Their mutual respect for one another - from the apex of their Fellowship as represented by the Mortal Sword, the Destriant, and the Shield Anvil, right down to the lowliest recruit - as admirably demonstrated by their formally addressing each and all, high and low, with "Sir." Kruppe cannot help but be moved mightily by such an organization. The Gray Swords are the civilized "tea" to the coarse "coffee" of the (equally admirable) Bridgeburners.

Wise Kruppe Has Spewed!

This post has been edited by Kruppe of Darujhistan: 07 July 2009 - 09:10 PM

[coltainereborn]

What is interesting about this chain of command, is that when they swear to the wolves of winter, it seems that that new SA takes charge. Of course, she was the only one with command experience, but when Toc shows up to be the Mortal Sword, he doesn't seem to be in command.

Spoiler

And in what little we hear about the grey swords in RG, it doesn't seem to me that Toc was the commander at that point either.

So maybe who's in charge has more to do with the person than what position they hold.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm in a re-read of MoI. I must say it seems as though Brukhalion is very much so the person in charge of the Grey Swords. It is Brukhalion who is in charge of negotiations with the Mask Council, along with Arard (the prince). It is Brukhalion who will decide when the terms of the contract are no longer achievable and they can thus quit Capustan. Gethol seeks out Brukhalion, not Karnadas or Itkovian, when approaching the Grey Swords from Hood. Karnadas awaits Brukhalion's approval before conversing with Quick Ben.

While they treat each other very well and with great respect, Brukhalion is the person in charge.

[Red King]

I have to agree with H.D. there, Brukhalion is the man in charge over all. They do have mutual respect for each other, and the Mortal Sword does let his Destriant and Shield Anvil handle the situations that they are more properly suited for. And I think that when it came to Rath'Fener losing his hands, I know Itkovian does the deed, but I believe that Gruntle (as the new mortal sword) sanctioned it, which made it completely legit for him to complete the ritual since it did in fact end up working. Either that, or it was because Itkovian said he was the Mortal sword since Brukhalion was no longer able to fulfill the position and completed the ritual. I don't remember clearly now, i'll have to re-read that part.

- Ultor