[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on Jun 25 2009, 12:37 AM, said:

Abyss, on Jun 24 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

I figured Korlat didn't know about Orfantal when she stopped to help Spin'.

And i know this is pure speculation, but we don't actually know that Orfantal is dead for certain. Sure Kallor got him in the neck with the BFB, but Scabby stabbed Silch in the back with an invested blade and stil couldn't kill him while he was just lying there bleeding, so draconic soletaken Tiste may not die so easily. Kallor's comment about 'a night for killing tiste andii' is irrelevant - at that point he thought Spin was dead too.

As for Kallor, i figure he CAN be killed, it's just really difficult. Despite the curse, he's acquired an ascendent level of power even before the CG starting amping him. In theory, even if Whiskeyjack hadn't broken a leg and actually heartstabbed him at Coral, it may have only made Kallor retreat sooner, rather than stick around until Tays drove him off.

- Abyss, ...Hard To Kill...

Er, we do - I asked Steve at the BBQ and he said yes, Orfantal's dead.

But will he return? DUN DUN DUUUUN!

[HoosierDaddy]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Jun 24 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Hoods Balls, on Jun 24 2009, 05:54 AM, said:

Well that's your definition Apt but the phrase "'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, shall know mortal life unending" could (as always with SE) mean other things as well. And noone really dies in Wu now do they?

Well the full quote is:
'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.’


To me that sounds like he could die at any time, and from things like disease or hunger or thirst, in addition to weapons and magic. He can definitely die, its just that his force of will is so strong that it would take a lot of damage to do it. Like Karsa.

I disagree with that interpretation WJD. Not so simple, I think. Here is how I read it:

"Know this:" Everything following is a curse.

"You, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula shall mortal life unending." = Kallor, you shall know a mortal life that never ends.

"Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair." = Like any other mortal, you'll age like a regular person, feel the pain of a regular person, and anguish in the despair that you shall exist that way forever.

"In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered." = The curse of the status quo. Of a perpetual Groundhogdayish existence, where his existence never really changes, other than the causes he chooses and the people he cares for always destroyed. (Rake, his alliance with Brood, Spinnock...)

"In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish." What won't he relinquish? His life. Thus, always in the shadow of Death because he is always in the business of death.

Can Kallor be killed? The re-emergence of the 3 Elders, his subsequent agreement to join HHC, and the confrontation with Tayschrenn would all point towards, yes now.

As to the "hunger" or "thirst" question.... hmmm, I'll just say read Return of the Crimson Guard.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 25 June 2009 - 06:58 AM

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on Jun 24 2009, 06:37 PM, said:

Abyss, on Jun 24 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

I figured Korlat didn't know about Orfantal when she stopped to help Spin'.

And i know this is pure speculation, but we don't actually know that Orfantal is dead for certain. Sure Kallor got him in the neck with the BFB, but Scabby stabbed Silch in the back with an invested blade and stil couldn't kill him while he was just lying there bleeding, so draconic soletaken Tiste may not die so easily. Kallor's comment about 'a night for killing tiste andii' is irrelevant - at that point he thought Spin was dead too.
...

Er, we do - I asked Steve at the BBQ and he said yes, Orfantal's dead.

beru, on Jun 24 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

and the hounds of light does not exsist...
...

Beru beat me to it.

- Abyss, ...and anyways, Harllo is HOW OLD???

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 25 2009, 02:52 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on Jun 24 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Hoods Balls, on Jun 24 2009, 05:54 AM, said:

Well that's your definition Apt but the phrase "'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, shall know mortal life unending" could (as always with SE) mean other things as well. And noone really dies in Wu now do they?

Well the full quote is:
'Know this: you, Kallor Eiderann Tes’thesula, shall know mortal life unending. Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair. In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered. In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish.’


To me that sounds like he could die at any time, and from things like disease or hunger or thirst, in addition to weapons and magic. He can definitely die, its just that his force of will is so strong that it would take a lot of damage to do it. Like Karsa.

I disagree with that interpretation WJD. Not so simple, I think. Here is how I read it:

"Know this:" Everything following is a curse.

"You, Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula shall mortal life unending." = Kallor, you shall know a mortal life that never ends.

"Mortal, in the ravages of age, in the pain of wounds and the anguish of despair." = Like any other mortal, you'll age like a regular person, feel the pain of a regular person, and anguish in the despair that you shall exist that way forever.

"In dreams brought to ruin. In love withered." = The curse of the status quo. Of a perpetual Groundhogdayish existence, where his existence never really changes, other than the causes he chooses and the people he cares for always destroyed. (Rake, his alliance with Brood, Spinnock...)

"In the shadow of Death’s spectre, ever a threat to end what you will not relinquish." What won't he relinquish? His life. Thus, always in the shadow of Death because he is always in the business of death.

Can Kallor be killed? The re-emergence of the 3 Elders, his subsequent agreement to join HHC, and the confrontation with Tayschrenn would all point towards, yes now.

As to the "hunger" or "thirst" question.... hmmm, I'll just say read Return of the Crimson Guard.

Where do we disagree? Basically my point was that Kallor could die, which you seem to agree with. I guess we disagree over the interpretation of living in the shadow of Death's spectre. I don't think it means he is always going to be around death, I think it means its possible for him to die.

[HoosierDaddy]

I think I disagreed on how easily he could die. E.g. his dying of thirst and hunger. I don't think that's gonna be happening. Thus, the read RotCG. Other than that, I was drunk, so blame it on the booze and me wanting to use legal breakdown on the quote.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jun 25 2009, 09:08 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on Jun 24 2009, 06:37 PM, said:

Abyss, on Jun 24 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

I figured Korlat didn't know about Orfantal when she stopped to help Spin'.

And i know this is pure speculation, but we don't actually know that Orfantal is dead for certain. Sure Kallor got him in the neck with the BFB, but Scabby stabbed Silch in the back with an invested blade and stil couldn't kill him while he was just lying there bleeding, so draconic soletaken Tiste may not die so easily. Kallor's comment about 'a night for killing tiste andii' is irrelevant - at that point he thought Spin was dead too.
...

Er, we do - I asked Steve at the BBQ and he said yes, Orfantal's dead.

beru, on Jun 24 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

and the hounds of light does not exsist...
...

Beru beat me to it.

- Abyss, ...and anyways, Harllo is HOW OLD???

He's a dragon!

D'rek, never going to stop with that one...

[Excellence]

No! There's a section in Bonehunters, where Dunsparrow was consecreted to Hood at birth, but Whiskey stole his younger sister away. Hood took his sweet revenge and didn't let Mallet heal his leg each time he tried to.

It was specifically said had Hood not done all that, an age old curse would have been broken.

Meaning Whiskey would have gotten Kallor in that fight, and put an end to it all.

Before anyone praises me for remembering that little tidbit, I just happened to read it yesterday and was easy to remember but go for it if you want to anyway.

[KeithF]

Someone should stab Hood in the face for that...oh...wait...

[Salamander Cake]

In my case, it wasn't Korlat that annoyed me it was Orfantal getting wasted by Kallor. All this time they've been hunting him and when he finally swoops away with him in his claws, he just holds him there until Kallor can free his arm and stab him in the head. It just doesn't fit. You'd be ripping the guy limb from limb.

[Illuyankas]

He was taking him back to Rake so he could use Dragnipur on him. I doubt Orfantal could be bothered to stop and staunch the bleeding after delimbing Kallor.

[Obdigore]

Excellence, on Jun 27 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

No! There's a section in Bonehunters, where Dunsparrow was consecreted to Hood at birth, but Whiskey stole his younger sister away. Hood took his sweet revenge and didn't let Mallet heal his leg each time he tried to.

It was specifically said had Hood not done all that, an age old curse would have been broken.

Meaning Whiskey would have gotten Kallor in that fight, and put an end to it all.

Before anyone praises me for remembering that little tidbit, I just happened to read it yesterday and was easy to remember but go for it if you want to anyway.

But, that section in Bonehunters was given by Fiddler who didn't know WJ before the first time in Raraku chasing QB while Kalam 'guided' them...

DO NOT REFER TO, IN ANY WAY, THE TIMELINE.

[Salt-Man Z]

Unless I'm mistaken, MoI didn't specifically say that WJ and Fiddler didn't know each other in Raraku. WJ could have been singling out his buddy to make a point. Or something. Besides, which, the Raraku flashback was a story told by WJ to Rake--who's to say that it's 100% accurate?

[Salamander Cake]

Illuyankas, on Aug 18 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

He was taking him back to Rake so he could use Dragnipur on him. I doubt Orfantal could be bothered to stop and staunch the bleeding after delimbing Kallor.

But Rake was dead by then and all the Tiste Andii felt his death. Nothing left at that point but to kill him.

[Salamander Cake]

Obdigore, on Aug 18 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Excellence, on Jun 27 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

No! There's a section in Bonehunters, where Dunsparrow was consecreted to Hood at birth, but Whiskey stole his younger sister away. Hood took his sweet revenge and didn't let Mallet heal his leg each time he tried to.

It was specifically said had Hood not done all that, an age old curse would have been broken.

Meaning Whiskey would have gotten Kallor in that fight, and put an end to it all.

Before anyone praises me for remembering that little tidbit, I just happened to read it yesterday and was easy to remember but go for it if you want to anyway.

But, that section in Bonehunters was given by Fiddler who didn't know WJ before the first time in Raraku chasing QB while Kalam 'guided' them...

DO NOT REFER TO, IN ANY WAY, THE TIMELINE.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't WJ and Fiddler on the roof of Mock's Hold with Ganoes Paran in the Prologue of GOTM? They weren't bridgeburners yet right?

[lobo the wolfman]

Salamander Cake: when WJ and Fiddler first meet Paran at Mock's Hold they were already BBs. Paran saw the BB pin on WJ shoulder and identified him as a commander in the Third Army.

I agree with Salt-man Z about WJ and Fidder in Raraku, it was never stated that WJ didn't know Fiddler then, he only addresses Fid as 'solider' and speaks to him like any one else. It doesn't mean that they don't already know each other. Fid might not have told his solider buddies that he and his commander where friends because of the gap between normal marines and offices. And with WJ not using Fid's real name, well how many other marines to we know by their birth names?

[redJAKO]

Salamander Cake, on Aug 18 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on Aug 18 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

He was taking him back to Rake so he could use Dragnipur on him. I doubt Orfantal could be bothered to stop and staunch the bleeding after delimbing Kallor.

But Rake was dead by then and all the Tiste Andii felt his death. Nothing left at that point but to kill him.

Bump for the Fiddler thread jack..

I also thought it silly that Korlat and Orfantal were JUST behind Kallor / Spinnock, then Korlat, a seemingly incredible powerful Andii (though Cowl liked to throw those Assassin Andii around), did seem to just "fall on his sword" via Kallor.

[Roldom]

sorry to go back to fiddler, but while most marines where named by brazentooth, at least at the start, its mentioned in that PoV and again l8er on by fid (tho i cant remember where, probs when hes in 7C and just meets his new squad ) that it was WJ who gave him his new name and the way hedge talks about him in that PoV the fiddle is a new thing WJ hasnt seen be4

[D'rek]

Roldom, on 01 March 2010 - 11:07 PM, said:

sorry to go back to fiddler, but while most marines where named by brazentooth, at least at the start, its mentioned in that PoV and again l8er on by fid (tho i cant remember where, probs when hes in 7C and just meets his new squad ) that it was WJ who gave him his new name and the way hedge talks about him in that PoV the fiddle is a new thing WJ hasnt seen be4

Still makes sense, though. Especially if WJ was trying to avoid showing existing acquaintance with Fiddler, so instead of using Fid's real name (as the other marines would've been doing) he made up something like "Sir Fiddler". Plenty of marines do seem to get through their training without getting a nickname, even "now" -> Galt, Koryk, Masan Gilani, Tavos Pond, Bellig Harn, Thom Tissy, Uru Hela... maybe Balgrid and Hanno... etc.

[Wampyry]

Quick paraphases. When WJ and the future Bridgeburners are tracking QB and his alter egos, WJ call out a soldier and asks about his broken fiddle. Fiddler says Hedge punched it, but I am going to get it fixed. WJ Ok, SIr Fiddler. Hedge, I like that, I'm going to call him Fiddler from now on.
Actually, I think WJ knew Fidler before the tracking, but he was keeping it secret from Kalam who was in cahoots with QB. When QB finally stops and gives up, Kalam finds that Fiddler and Hedge's crossbows are aimed right at him. WJ says, Fiddler figured out a long time ago. Just wanted to see how far you two would go

[Wampyry]

Quick paraphases. When WJ and the future Bridgeburners are tracking QB and his alter egos, WJ call out a soldier and asks about his broken fiddle. Fiddler says Hedge punched it, but I am going to get it fixed. WJ Ok, SIr Fiddler. Hedge, I like that, I'm going to call him Fiddler from now on.
Actually, I think WJ knew Fidler before the tracking, but he was keeping it secret from Kalam who was in cahoots with QB. When QB finally stops and gives up, Kalam finds that Fiddler and Hedge's crossbows are aimed right at him. WJ says, Fiddler figured out a long time ago. Just wanted to see how far you two would go