[amphibian]

At the end of The Bonehunters, Tayschrenn and Shadowthrone have a brief, but interesting conversation. In it, Tayschrenn reveals a surprising amount of knowledge as to what's going on in the world around him and cautions Shadowthrone that the only one he should worry about is "his child".

p. 882 in the Epilogue

Quote

Neither spoke for a time after that, until the god murmured, 'My poor Wickans...'
'They are not as vulnerable as you fear, Emperor. They will have Nil and Nether. They will have Temul, and when Temul is old, decades from now, he will have a young warrior to teach, whose name shall be Coltaine.' He clasped his hands behind his back, frowning down at the smoke-wreathed city as the first greying of dawn approached. 'If you would fear,' he said, 'fear for your own child.'
'I fear nothing-'
'Liar. You heard Temper step out of Coop's - and you fled.'
'Expedience!'
'Unquestionably.'
'You're in a nest of vipers here - I am happy to leave you to it.'
Tayschrenn sketched a modest bow. 'Emperor. Please convey my greetings to Cotillion.'
'Tell him yourself, if you dare.'
'It was not me who stole Kalam from him - tell me, does the assassin live?'
'He's in the Deadhouse - isn't that answer enough?'
'Not really.'
'I know!' Shadowthrone cackled in glee, then vanished like mist in the wind.

I've read all the books up to Toll the Hounds (excepting the Baluchelain/Broach books), and I can't remember any other reference to Shadowthrone having a child. Furthermore, the concern Tayschrenn shows for Kalam seems a bit odd in this context - although their conversation jumps around quite a bit as both Shadowthrone and Tayschrenn are kind of speaking to signal understanding and awareness to each other.

Is it possible that Kalam is Kellanved's son? Barathol Mekhar said that they were part of a tribe that was smashed by Falah'd Enezgura of Aren and the survivors scattered far and wide. This possibly suggests that the tribe was broke pre-Malazan empire and probably long before Kalam became a bodyguard.

Any thoughts?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 June 2009 - 08:51 PM

[D'rek]

They are talking about people and cultures and ST is whining about "his poor Wickans", then Tay says they'll be fine, worry about your own child as he stares around the burning city full of corpses. 'Child' is a metaphor meaning the Malazan Empire, implicatively being compared to the Wickan nation (a child that is not ST's).

This post has been edited by D'rek: 19 June 2009 - 09:35 PM

[Aptorian]

I'm honestly a bit surprised and old member is making this thread. There's been a dozen threads on the subject.

People most often think it was Temper Tay was refering to, but the child is the empire.

[amphibian]

Aptorian, on Jun 19 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

People most often think it was Temper Tay was refering to, but the child is the empire.

What's the confirmation? Their conversation doesn't seem to go to that level of metaphor before that comment. It's entirely possible Kellanved has a real child bopping somewhere around Wu, as we've seen Dassem's daughter, Baudin Jr. and Toc the Younger.

I always thought of Temper as being not-black, as Kellanved and Kalam are. I know that despite being part of Dassem's Sword, Temper's not automatically ruled out based on age because Kellanved ruled for something like a century before disappearing.

Quote

I'm honestly a bit surprised and old member is making this thread. There's been a dozen threads on the subject.

I'll do some digging. I must have missed it the first few go rounds.

[T'renn]

I believed Temper was black... i think, not really sure. Thought he was.... part-Dal Hon

[amphibian]

I did some digging and yeah, this thread's been done before. However, I still think there's some possible grounds to Kalam being the unknown Imperial heir. It'd be a total WTF moment, as Kalam's never shown true leadership abilities before in the series though.

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jun 20 2009, 01:40 AM, said:

I believed Temper was black... i think, not really sure. Thought he was.... part-Dal Hon

I'll get to re-reading NoK and RotCG in a bit. Definitive answer coming soon.

[Salt-Man Z]

I always interpreted it as the Empire.

And I absolutely love this quote. Shadowthrone is a madman!

Quote

'It was not me who stole Kalam from him - tell me, does the assassin live?'
'He's in the Deadhouse - isn't that answer enough?'
'Not really.'
'I know!' Shadowthrone cackled in glee, then vanished like mist in the wind.

[Zendog13]

Me thinks Kalam's mummy would have been a big, strong lady cause he certainly did not get his brawn from Kel....assuming he is his pappy.
Honestly I too thought of the Empire as his child though one has to wonder at how strong a tie one like Kel would make with something he obviously saw as a stepping-stone.
We have a saying in Greece. "Avisos i psiche tou anthropou" which translates to "Mans soul is like the Abyss" as in "WTF?". Rather apt when talking about Kel of all people in the Malazan universe, no?

This post has been edited by Zendog13: 23 June 2009 - 08:46 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Zendog13, on Jun 23 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

one has to wonder at how strong a tie one like Kel would make with something he obviously saw as a stepping-stone.

Stepping-stone or not, he was Emperor for close to 100 years. I'd think it'd be hard not to develop a bond of some sort over such a time period.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 23 June 2009 - 09:10 PM

[Kryphon]

Salt-Man Z, on Jun 23 2009, 02:09 PM, said:

Zendog13, on Jun 23 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

one has to wonder at how strong a tie one like Kel would make with something he obviously saw as a stepping-stone.

Stepping-stone or not, he was Emperor for close to 100 years. I'd think it'd be hard not to develop a bond of some sort over such a time period.

100 YEARS!?! Holy shit, where was this and how did I miss it? If it was NoK of ThH then... Forthcoming for me.

I've always got the feeling from ST that he cares VERY much about the Malazan Empire.

Spoiler

I'd be shocked if he doesn't have something nasty planned for Laseen for what

she's done to it.

Not sure if that should be spoilered or not... Can't hurt, though.

[amphibian]

Zendog13, on Jun 23 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

Me thinks Kalam's mummy would have been a big, strong lady cause he certainly did not get his brawn from Kel....assuming he is his pappy.
Honestly I too thought of the Empire as his child though one has to wonder at how strong a tie one like Kel would make with something he obviously saw as a stepping-stone.

Barathol is even bigger than Kalam - maybe Kellanved's genes shrunk him down to regular size...

That second line is exactly my thinking regarding the Malazan empire - it's a beginning to a plan hatched as the Old Guard inhabited the Deadhouse Azath.

Kryphon, on Jun 24 2009, 08:15 PM, said:

100 YEARS!?! Holy shit, where was this and how did I miss it? If it was NoK of ThH then... Forthcoming for me.

There's tidbits scattered here and there within the first four books about Kellanved ruling for more than 100 years. Plus all of the Deadhouse inhabitants have been gifted with longer lives and added durability.

Quote

I've always got the feeling from ST that he cares VERY much about the Malazan Empire.

Spoiler

I'd be shocked if he doesn't have something nasty planned for Laseen for what

she's done to it.

Not sure if that should be spoilered or not... Can't hurt, though.

I suggest you read Night of Knives and Return of the Crimson Guard, then go back and re-read the regular Malazan books - this one in particular. I don't agree with your spoilered text at all, as I consider that whole Laseen thing a feint/method of arranging events to deal with The Crippled God.

[Salt-Man Z]

Kryphon, on Jun 24 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

100 YEARS!?! Holy shit, where was this and how did I miss it? If it was NoK of ThH then... Forthcoming for me.

The prologue to GotM is dated "96th year of the Malazan Empire, The Last Year of Emperor Kellanved's Reign". We know Kellanved founded the Empire, meaning he ruled for 96 years.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 25 June 2009 - 04:18 PM

[Dolorous Menhir]

This is the FAQ entry on the topic. I wrote it, so if you disagree comment there or let me know.

[amphibian]

Dolorous Menhir, on Jun 28 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

This is the FAQ entry on the topic. I wrote it, so if you disagree comment there or let me know.

You say "clear". I don't think it's that definite. Perhaps "most likely" or "probable" would be better.

[Dolorous Menhir]

amphibian, on Jun 28 2009, 11:02 PM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on Jun 28 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

This is the FAQ entry on the topic. I wrote it, so if you disagree comment there or let me know.

You say "clear". I don't think it's that definite. Perhaps "most likely" or "probable" would be better.

Very well. Perhaps it is not clear. But, it is a sensible reading of the passage to decide that the "child" is the Empire. Arguing that it is Temper is based on a misunderstanding. And there is no reason to link Kalam with this, at all.

[Excellence]

Shadowthrone saved Kalam because he's a resource, and he makes use of resources . . . especially when they have to owe you for saving their life.

[Kryphon]

Excellence, on Jul 1 2009, 03:03 AM, said:

Shadowthrone saved Kalam because he's a resource, and he makes use of resources . . . especially when they have to owe you for saving their life.

Having not read past RG I can't say for certain, but I have a feeling I know where Kalam ends up, and it isn't in High House Shadow. Kalam won't owe ST anything. ST had motives for doing that, but even he can't control or predict what will happen with Kalam. Tossing someone in an Azath doesn't really mean saving their life in the conventional sense anyways.