[chill]

Here's the short version of the story.

The Catholic Church, feeling that it's loosing it's influence in croatian society, starts a massive campaign to remind people of the importance of the Bible, family life, traditional values and church going. To do so, they mustered all of their influence and concentrated it on one goal - a formidable and obviously efficient tactic. The problem is, the goal had little connection with the actual situation in society, but too much connection with the Bible.
Their goal was to make government to ban work on Sundays. Because, as is clearly written, the Creator himself had rested on the Seventh Day.
The right wing government, which came to power advocating pretty much the same values and approving of anything archbishop said, had very little choice - ignoring the demands of the Church would be extremely damaging to their influence (most of the ministers, including the prime minister, declare themselves as devoted catholics). So, after stalling for more than a year, the law was proclaimed - shops and boutiques will not work on Sundays and holidays at all.
At first, it wasn't that bad - until the tourist season began 2 months ago.
Every Sunday, one or more cruisers dock in Dubrovnik's harbors, and every Sunday they stare at closed shops, unable to believe that a tourism-orientated country could forbid shopkeepers to work on a day when they usually make the most profit. Today, the shopkeepers of Dubrovnik have protested against this law, pointing out that the state is about to lose a huge amount of money if this doesn't end right now.
As a catholic, I find this law pointless and completely off target. Rather than trying to influence our social life, the Church decided to mess with the economy, through a government that had to budge, and both lost much of their credibility. Furthermore, the law applies to nobody but shopkeepers - the restaurant owners, for example, who work even harder at the peak of the tourist season, are not allowed their well-earned sunday rest. The religious authorities are smart enough not to complain about that, as this law is something that wouldn't fly anywhere else, so why push it. The government won't be able to ignore this much longer, as local authorities fully support shopkeepers' demands to ban this law.

Does anyone have another example of religious authorities abusing their influence in such manner?

by the way, I tried to find some info on this topic on english, but obviously there is none.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I cant say Im surprised by the Catholic church trying to control people's lives, it's not as if they havent been doing it for over a thousand years.

Why Sunday, anyway? Why is that the 7th day? At no point in the bible does it specify, Im sure, why could the start of the week not actually be a tuesday an monday the day of rest? And why start paying attention to Sundays again and not no meat on a Friday?

[Aptorian]

It's strange, the Catholic church could be a great force of good because its vast political and cultural impact, but instead 99% of what you hear about the church is them being backwards and unflexible.

Imagine if there was a great reformation of the church. One where these so called enlightened men, realised that most of the educated world has stopped believing in this magical allknowing ghost and had stopped needing the church as a crutch. Imagine if they realised that people had stopped listening to the Vatican because people no longer wanted some holy boogyman to control their life. What if they cut their loses and turned their church into the worlds largest culturally neutral NGO and started to change their message from one of "Gods word" and instead it became one of "Mankinds Potential". A philosophical school opposed to any form of hostility, with connections in all of the worlds nations, one who had the world leaders ear, one who had the Multinational companies as well as the little mans ear. The ten laws of God, the 7 (or 14) deadly sins, becomming the ten tennants of human philosophy and the 7 great perils of human weakness. Instead of looking to some magical spaceghost, mankind would only have themselves and their children to answer to, they could be their own gods.

It saddens me that the Vatican has so much potential and instead of having a young promising "CEO" of christ leading the way, they continue to promote antiquatted ideas, lead by old men who have to wear a diaper and can't hardly even speak.

[Bent]

So, just an FYI

The Sabbath (which is what the Bible says to observe and keep holy) was on Saturday. Thats the Jewish Sabbath according to the Jewish calendar. The truth of why the church chose Sunday, is a question most Christians don't know the answer to, however, it is believed that the church chose sunday because of the Roman calander, which ended the week on sunday. I, personally have been told different, by some of the more conspiracy theory minded. They chose sunday as a day to worship the sun god, or RA in Egyptian, or Hamm, in the bible. Pretty much the embodiment of Satan on earth, when he was the serpent (yes the same one in the garden of eden, and the one that tempted Jesus before the crucifixian).

The conspiracy theory people, believe that they (the corrupt catholic church, the one Martin Luther opposed) made it Sunday, so that they could influence the true Roman Catholics into following more of the pagan rituals. (Such as Christmas, which in the bible says pagans hung the heads of the Christian martyrs on evergreen trees, or Easter which became the bunny and eggs, celebration of sex and fertility)

Most Christians however believe that as long as one day is set aside to worship, then God won't hold a grudge it being on a day that isn't the norm (God doesn't count time like we do, several times in the bible time is spoken of in hours ie 7 times 777 hours, which is interpreted as years.).

I'll leave now before the insults start flying, but thought that it might be good to add a little knowledge from the Christian perspective.

[Bent]

Aptorian, on Jun 11 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Imagine if there was a great reformation of the church. One where these so called enlightened men, realised that most of the educated world has stopped believing in this magical allknowing ghost and had stopped needing the church as a crutch. Imagine if they realised that people had stopped listening to the Vatican because people no longer wanted some holy boogyman to control their life. What if they cut their loses and turned their church into the worlds largest culturally neutral NGO and started to change their message from one of "Gods word" and instead it became one of "Mankinds Potential". A philosophical school opposed to any form of hostility, with connections in all of the worlds nations, one who had the world leaders ear, one who had the Multinational companies as well as the little mans ear. The ten laws of God, the 7 (or 14) deadly sins, becomming the ten tennants of human philosophy and the 7 great perils of human weakness. Instead of looking to some magical spaceghost, mankind would only have themselves and their children to answer to, they could be their own gods.

Just want to point out that this exact thing is prophesised in Revelations, the church mentioned above will be led by the Anti-Christ, and is called the great whore.


All of these people go to hell at the end, not a real bright future, from my point of view.

Disclaimer: I don't follow the Catholics, as I believe that they are not correct in their beliefs. I pray to Jesus, not a holy father, priest or cardinal.

[Silencer]

Revelations predicts lots of stuff. Including God getting rid of death, making a second death (a lake of sulphur/fire), and throwing all unbelievers into it. Nice guy. But I digress.

I still don't get why people would choose to shoot themselves in the foot with the sacred rest day thing. Just because God did it, doesn't mean you should do it. He rested (not quite sure why, being omnipotent) after the labour of creating everything. People who work in shops selling stuff are not exactly requiring the same stuff, especially considering we sleep every day as well (you know, God didn't do that, so our 8 hours of sleep a day kind of makes up for that, don't it?).

But meh.

[Darkwatch]

In a country where tourism is the major economic force, and cruise ships dock on that day then it's a silly law.

Though I can't say I'd mind everything being closed Sundays (and all holidays) here for whatever reason.
It would help curb the rabbid attitude of most customers, and making life for those in the service industry more manageable.
It's getting to the point where everyone is open on every damn holiday. What's the bloody point? More profit? Fine yeah they're right.
But it's just fuel for those foul customers, those dogs that come in and piss all over the place (in the very literal sense).
They need to be curbed and if it takes a law to do it in a non tourist nation than so be it. And if that law is based on religion, I don't care. I'll lead the crusade myself it helps me grind my rage into the average customer.


I hate customers...

[Aptorian]

Bent, on Jun 11 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jun 11 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Imagine if there was a great reformation of the church. One where these so called enlightened men, realised that most of the educated world has stopped believing in this magical allknowing ghost and had stopped needing the church as a crutch. Imagine if they realised that people had stopped listening to the Vatican because people no longer wanted some holy boogyman to control their life. What if they cut their loses and turned their church into the worlds largest culturally neutral NGO and started to change their message from one of "Gods word" and instead it became one of "Mankinds Potential". A philosophical school opposed to any form of hostility, with connections in all of the worlds nations, one who had the world leaders ear, one who had the Multinational companies as well as the little mans ear. The ten laws of God, the 7 (or 14) deadly sins, becomming the ten tennants of human philosophy and the 7 great perils of human weakness. Instead of looking to some magical spaceghost, mankind would only have themselves and their children to answer to, they could be their own gods.

Just want to point out that this exact thing is prophesised in Revelations, the church mentioned above will be led by the Anti-Christ, and is called the great whore.


All of these people go to hell at the end, not a real bright future, from my point of view.

Disclaimer: I don't follow the Catholics, as I believe that they are not correct in their beliefs. I pray to Jesus, not a holy father, priest or cardinal.

Dammit, their on to me!

But, isn't it funny that the authors of the bible built in a safeguard against chang so that their way of life and their control can't be tampered with.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Catholicism makes me weep with frustration.

Besides the fact, that as I once demonstrated in an essay, God must and can only exist an an atemporal being, so to even try and fit his work in with a calendar/day system is impossible. Also, surely it's essentially offensive and un-Christian, because you're trying to humanise God and his work - to downgrade him in a sort of way, like Revelations and all that forbids?

[Cougar]

Thelomen Toblerone, on Jun 12 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Catholicism makes me weep with frustration.

Besides the fact, that as I once demonstrated in an essay, God must and can only exist an an atemporal being, so to even try and fit his work in with a calendar/day system is impossible.

I bloody love this statement, I love the confidence in your own ability. I can see the headlines in the papers

Undergrad' Solves Existensial Conundrum in 1500 word GV1700: 'Introduction to Philosophy' Essay

Vatican declares Greg Toblerone of Univ' Sussex "has achieved the ultimate epic win" before closing their doors and going back to their day jobs. Cardinal Ratzinger said: "To be fair, we had been waiting for someone to call us out on this for the last 2000 years. At the start it was a bit of a laugh between this dude and his 13 mates but soon a load of wackos started taking it too seriously and Peter felt too embarassed to say anything".

By which, of course, Tobes you mean you theorised, maybe even postulated, possibly went as far as to contend. But you definitely did not demonstrate.

What else did you come up with; an irrefutable proof of your own divinity?

Get back to being a cutpurse in hackney.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Alright Mr "I've never claimed anything contentious" or used the wrong word in a throwaway sentence, calm down As one of the most outspoken people in the history of the world, I would've thought you'd have recognised a fellow mis-placed word when you saw one.

Can't remember the exact argument, but it was something along the lines of an all-knowing God existing in a linear time-frame being inconsistent with man having free will. I'd guess I went for something like this:

-God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient.
-Man has free will.
-Therefore for God to know everything, he must know what man is going to do. Just to know what a man might do in a given situation is not enough, he must know the EXACT outcome.
-If the outcome is known and time is linear, then free will is just an illusion - God knows in advance your actions and thus they are determined.
-But if God exists outside of time, then he knows all things simultaneously - knowing your action and the situation at the same time, nothing is pre-ordained, as the lack of a linear timescale prevents a future/present/past distinction.

Not too sure, but if you'll forgive a 5 minute stab, that'll do for now.

EDIT: Wow, that's an unconvincing argument. I put that down to poor memory and being a cocky first year at the time.

Besides which, you can't be a cutpurse in Hackney, as everyone knows, everyone there's too poor to get anything valuable - it'd be like trying to go pickpocketing in Liverpool. And the competition is quite frankly horrendous.

This post has been edited by Thelomen Toblerone: 12 June 2009 - 12:51 PM

[Obdigore]

Most Churches would argue, TT, that God knows all things that are capable of being known. He knows everything when it happens, and all that has happened in the past.

He puts prophesies into the bible because he has the power to make them come about, not because he knows the future.

HAI GUYZ I JUST DEBUNKED TT's PHILOSOPHY. WILL THE VATICAN PAY ME ONE HUNDRED MILLION EUROS BECAUSE I SAVED THEIR JEWBS?

[Cougar]

I've never claimed anything contentious, I've only stated things that are controversial.

No opportunity for cutpursing? Then it's back to the workhouse you urchin!

Sorry, derailing again.

ahem....Catholocism sucks.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Obdigore, on Jun 12 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

Most Churches would argue, TT, that God knows all things that are capable of being known. He knows everything when it happens, and all that has happened in the past.

He puts prophesies into the bible because he has the power to make them come about, not because he knows the future.

HAI GUYZ I JUST DEBUNKED TT's PHILOSOPHY. WILL THE VATICAN PAY ME ONE HUNDRED MILLION EUROS BECAUSE I SAVED THEIR JEWBS?

So then God is not omniscient, because he does not know everything? And if he does not know the future because it's not possible, then he's not omnipotnent, because for God (the creator of the fabric of reality), everything is supposed to be possible. So still, the christian conception of God is inconsistent with free will. The second God knows what you're going to do in the future with absolute certainty, then sin ceases to have all meaning - how can you punish someone with an eternity of torment in hell when the very sins they commit are pre-ordained and outside of their control?

God creates the Universe, as the uncaused cause. If he is omniscient and omnipotent, he must know everything that is going to happen (were time to exist as linear for him also), ruling out free will, as every decision - pre-ordained, as it is - stems uncontrollably for the individual from God's original actions. Therefore your sinning is outside of your control. If God is all powerful, he MUST have the ability to know the future. If he doesn't, he isn't. Whilst I have no problem with this idea, I've been led to believe most Christians would have a fundamental issue with this.

Also, if God is making prophecies come true through direct intervention, then that also limits free will because he's imposing a set of circumstances upon the lives of people - free will is the excuse most christians I know use for the existence of suffering. If God is interfering in the world to make things come to pass, then why not to stop a tsunami, or murder, or whatever? Seems inconsistent with the whole concept of the Christian God.

This post has been edited by Thelomen Toblerone: 12 June 2009 - 02:45 PM

[Obdigore]

Thelomen Toblerone, on Jun 12 2009, 09:38 AM, said:

Obdigore, on Jun 12 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

Most Churches would argue, TT, that God knows all things that are capable of being known. He knows everything when it happens, and all that has happened in the past.

He puts prophesies into the bible because he has the power to make them come about, not because he knows the future.

HAI GUYZ I JUST DEBUNKED TT's PHILOSOPHY. WILL THE VATICAN PAY ME ONE HUNDRED MILLION EUROS BECAUSE I SAVED THEIR JEWBS?

So then God is not omniscient, because he does not know everything? And if he does not know the future because it's not possible, then he's not omnipotnent, because for God (the creator of the fabric of reality), everything is supposed to be possible. So still, the christian conception of God is inconsistent with free will. The second God knows what you're going to do in the future with absolute certainty, then sin ceases to have all meaning - how can you punish someone with an eternity of torment in hell when the very sins they commit are pre-ordained and outside of their control?

Ahh, but the bible never says he knows the future. It says he knows everything that happens and everything that men think/do/feel. Nowhere in the bible does it say he knows the future, beyond what he has prohphesied he or his will do. I really like Butchers (TURN COAT SPOILER)

Spoiler

local intellect spirit, it just knows everything that is happening, where it is, and what it is doing, but it is fuzzy about the past. It dosen't know how to add 20 and 20 together because it just instantly knows there are 40. That is as good an explanation of what most non-idiot christians think 'god' is that I have seen.

You edit and add 2 paragraphs? Bastard! Let me edit and respond.

TT's Edit said:

God creates the Universe, as the uncaused cause. If he is omniscient and omnipotent, he must know everything that is going to happen (were time to exist as linear for him also), ruling out free will, as every decision - pre-ordained, as it is - stems uncontrollably for the individual from God's original actions. Therefore your sinning is outside of your control. If God is all powerful, he MUST have the ability to know the future. If he doesn't, he isn't. Whilst I have no problem with this idea, I've been led to believe most Christians would have a fundamental issue with this.

Also, if God is making prophecies come true through direct intervention, then that also limits free will because he's imposing a set of circumstances upon the lives of people - free will is the excuse most christians I know use for the existence of suffering. If God is interfering in the world to make things come to pass, then why not to stop a tsunami, or murder, or whatever? Seems inconsistent with the whole concept of the Christian God.

Regarding the creation of the universe, read my first response in this post. Nothing is pre-ordained, besides what he will do.

Just to humor you, even if God knows what is going to happen, that does not mean you have no control. You are assuming that if God knows the future, then he is forcing you along a path. If he is all-powerful and able to view the future without effecting it, than you certainly do have decisions to make, that will effect you and the things around you, because YOU don't know where you will end up. Your Sinning is not outside your control, because you still make those decisions, in your little world, with your little knowledge, based on your decisions.

If his only direct intervention through prophesies is A) Sending his Son to Earth as a human-ish to deliver these prophesies, and Using his power as described in Revelations, then he changes nothing until he changes everything, allowing people to use their free-will and make their own decisions as they wish.

As to things like the church being led by sinners and the the great demon loved by the nations walking the earth, perhaps he is like the PsychoHistorian (I cannot remember his name) from Asimov's "Empire" series. It will happen. When and where and how, is up to the people (Free-Will, oh noes!).

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 12 June 2009 - 03:00 PM

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Lol sorry, posted, realised I'd left stuff out, and edited whilst you must've been typing.

[MTS]

I agree with TT. The very fact that God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent detracts from the conception that we have free will, not to mention his very existence. Like TT said, if God doesn't know the future, then he is not omniscient, and if he can't he's not omnipotent. Even if he can you run into a host of other problems.
Firstly, if God knows every action that will be taken, in a linear time frame God has the option to direct what happens. If he doesn't have that capacity, then he isn't omnipotent. Thus all of mankind's actions are pre-ordained by God, who has the power to direct them. If he can, then God cannot hold you responsible for sin - how can God punish you for something that is essentially out of your control? If he seriously did not want us sinning, he would remove the possibility altogether.
Secondly, if God has the ability to affect time, by doing that he is destroying free will by changing events to suit his own purpose - influencing time means God knew what was going to happen, and opted people to act in a certain way to fulfill his purpose in altering that time. Thus nothing we do is truly of our own volition, as God has the ability to directly influence what we do.

[Obdigore]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jun 12 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

I agree with TT. The very fact that God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent detracts from the conception that we have free will, not to mention his very existence. Like TT said, if God doesn't know the future, then he is not omniscient, and if he can't he's not omnipotent. Even if he can you run into a host of other problems.
Firstly, if God knows every action that will be taken, in a linear time frame God has the option to direct what happens. If he doesn't have that capacity, then he isn't omnipotent. Thus all of mankind's actions are pre-ordained by God, who has the power to direct them. If he can, then God cannot hold you responsible for sin - how can God punish you for something that is essentially out of your control? If he seriously did not want us sinning, he would remove the possibility altogether.
Secondly, if God has the ability to affect time, by doing that he is destroying free will by changing events to suit his own purpose - influencing time means God knew what was going to happen, and opted people to act in a certain way to fulfill his purpose in altering that time. Thus nothing we do is truly of our own volition, as God has the ability to directly influence what we do.

Your logic is faulty.

1) God Knows the future
2) God Can direct what happens.
3) Therefore, sin isn't your fault, because God could have stopped you from doing it.


Your argument is as flawed as:

1) Fork makers know Forks are made to eat with.
2) Fork makers could stop making forks.
3) You use a fork to get fat, therefore your being fat is the fork makers fault.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Obdigore, on Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Just to humor you, even if God knows what is going to happen, that does not mean you have no control. You are assuming that if God knows the future, then he is forcing you along a path. If he is all-powerful and able to view the future without effecting it, than you certainly do have decisions to make, that will effect you and the things around you, because YOU don't know where you will end up. Your Sinning is not outside your control, because you still make those decisions, in your little world, with your little knowledge, based on your decisions.

If his only direct intervention through prophesies is A) Sending his Son to Earth as a human-ish to deliver these prophesies, and Using his power as described in Revelations, then he changes nothing until he changes everything, allowing people to use their free-will and make their own decisions as they wish.

That's the point about free will though - Im not assuming God is "forcing" anyone, there's absolutely no need for God's knowing the future to affect your decision, agreed. But the very fact that the future IS known, means that there IS a definitive outcome. The future is pre-ordained. You may not feel forced to make that choice in question, but before the situation even arose, you were always going to make that choice - because God knows the future, and he saw it. You may be making the decision based upon everything around you, but ultimately the choice was always going to be made in that way - you merely have the illusion of free will.

God's foresight may not affect your choice, but likewise it means that there was only one choice to be made - God knew 10,000 years before I was born I would choose to eat toast for breakfast today - he didnt't influence my choice, but given it was known, there was nothing else I could have actually eaten. I may feel I made the free choice, but I didn't. It's the equivalent of flipping a coin and asking someone to choose heads or tails, when the coin is actually a rigged one - both sides are heads. The other person doesnt know this, they cant see the coin before or after, but they feel their choice is free. The fact the outcome can only ever be heads isn't affecting their decision making because they're unaware, but it still prevents them from guessing tails and being right.

And if I was always going to sin, then it sort of removes the element of responsibility. If God knows I will murder a baker in 50 years, how is it fair to punish me for all eternity, when I essentially have no other possibility but to do so?

I think our only realy disagreement stems from the first point, which is that God knows the future. According to my understanding of the Christian
God, his being omniscient and omnipotent means he MUST know the future, if he exists temporally. According to your understanding, God does not know the future, which entails he's not all powerful, but doesn't need to be. So it all depends on the interpretation of what God is, fundamentally, and his properties - and so my claim that an omniscient omnipotent God, existing temporally, is inconsistent with free will, is not at odds with your belief in the nature of God, as you conceive of him differently.

[Obdigore]

Thelomen Toblerone, on Jun 12 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

Obdigore, on Jun 12 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Just to humor you, even if God knows what is going to happen, that does not mean you have no control. You are assuming that if God knows the future, then he is forcing you along a path. If he is all-powerful and able to view the future without effecting it, than you certainly do have decisions to make, that will effect you and the things around you, because YOU don't know where you will end up. Your Sinning is not outside your control, because you still make those decisions, in your little world, with your little knowledge, based on your decisions.

If his only direct intervention through prophesies is A) Sending his Son to Earth as a human-ish to deliver these prophesies, and Using his power as described in Revelations, then he changes nothing until he changes everything, allowing people to use their free-will and make their own decisions as they wish.

That's the point about free will though - Im not assuming God is "forcing" anyone, there's absolutely no need for God's knowing the future to affect your decision, agreed. But the very fact that the future IS known, means that there IS a definitive outcome. The future is pre-ordained. You may not feel forced to make that choice in question, but before the situation even arose, you were always going to make that choice - because God knows the future, and he saw it. You may be making the decision based upon everything around you, but ultimately the choice was always going to be made in that way - you merely have the illusion of free will.

God's foresight may not affect your choice, but likewise it means that there was only one choice to be made - God knew 10,000 years before I was born I would choose to eat toast for breakfast today - he didnt't influence my choice, but given it was known, there was nothing else I could have actually eaten. I may feel I made the free choice, but I didn't. It's the equivalent of flipping a coin and asking someone to choose heads or tails, when the coin is actually a rigged one - both sides are heads. The other person doesnt know this, they cant see the coin before or after, but they feel their choice is free. The fact the outcome can only ever be heads isn't affecting their decision making because they're unaware, but it still prevents them from guessing tails and being right.

And if I was always going to sin, then it sort of removes the element of responsibility. If God knows I will murder a baker in 50 years, how is it fair to punish me for all eternity, when I essentially have no other possibility but to do so?

I think our only realy disagreement stems from the first point, which is that God knows the future. According to my understanding of the Christian
God, his being omniscient and omnipotent means he MUST know the future, if he exists temporally. According to your understanding, God does not know the future, which entails he's not all powerful, but doesn't need to be. So it all depends on the interpretation of what God is, fundamentally, and his properties - and so my claim that an omniscient omnipotent God, existing temporally, is inconsistent with free will, is not at odds with your belief in the nature of God, as you conceive of him differently.

I actually don't believe in a god/gods, I am just disagreeing with you using what I was taught as a child .

It is also different in how you look at it. You did make a choice to eat the toast. Just because someone knew you were going to eat the toast does not mean it was not your decision to make. Just because God knows all the choices you are going to make, does not mean anyone besides you made them. Noone set your feet upon the path, noone chose for you to eat toast. God did not choose for those priests to rape their alter boys, they made that choice. God knew they were going to, in your religious view, but that did not mean HE made that choice. The only choice god made was to not intervine. To allow your free will to happen.

He knew that in 10,000 years, after everything else that would happen in that time, that you would make the decision to eat toast instead of pancakes. He did not make that decision for you. You did. I fear I am not being clear...

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 12 June 2009 - 03:22 PM