[XIcy Hot Patchx]

I'm on my second read through and I cannot remember who betrayed them. They suspect it was Tayschren, but I think I remember reading that it wasn't. I have read up through House of Chains, so spoilers to there are fine if neccesary.

Also, the Bridgeburners that were killed in the tunnels. Were they in tunnels to attempt to collapse Pale's walls? What caused the tunnels to collapse?

[Sheve]

Cant say if the spoilers are beyond HoC about the daemons so wont say anything there.
But i think the tunnels collapsed because of massive amount of magic unleashed above the and the chunks of moons spawn that fell down to the ground.

[Aptorian]

Anyone who answers this question remember its the GotM forum.

Have you read MOI Xicy? Cause then I can move the thread there if you want.

There's already plenty of threads on the subject both in the GotM and MOI forum.

[XIcy Hot Patchx]

I have read MOI.

[Bonesaw85]

Uhhh..... Isn't that second sentence a spoiler from MoI?

[Aptorian]

Bonesaw85, on May 26 2009, 11:47 PM, said:

Uhhh..... Isn't that second sentence a spoiler from MoI?

Sounds like logical deduction to me...

[Aptorian]

I moved the topic to the MoI forum.

The obvious suspect is of course Tayschren, since he is a known powerful summoner.

How ever, since we learn in MoI of Nightchills plan to take Dragnipur, it's worth considering that some of these demons were her work. She was the one that killed Akaronys.

How ever the demon that tore Nightchill into pieces, a Kenrylala, was Tayschrens.

The army was indeed trying to tunnel under the city, but for some reason they were having big trouble with that. Tayschren claims in MOI that the Bridgeburners had been sent under ground to protect from the sorcerous enfilade, not to kill them.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on May 27 2009, 04:03 AM, said:

I moved the topic to the MoI forum.

The obvious suspect is of course Tayschren, since he is a known powerful summoner.



How ever, since we learn in MoI of Nightchills plan to take Dragnipur, it's worth considering that some of these demons were her work. She was the one that killed Akaronys.

Everything in MoI comes from Tay himself (through Dujek), making it highly unreliable. Sure, maybe Nightchill was making a play for Dragnipur but all we have is Tay's word on it, a man who desperately has to justify his betrayal of his allies. As for Nightchill killing A'karonys, that would be quite the feat since the events goes: Kenryllah(Sp?) tearing Nightchill apart -> Bellurdan crushing Kenryllah -> A'karonys getting killed. Tayschrenn or Rake as A'karonys killer is far more likely than Nightchill as his killer.

[BurnedBridge]

Urizen, on May 27 2009, 09:22 AM, said:

Aptorian, on May 27 2009, 04:03 AM, said:

I moved the topic to the MoI forum.

The obvious suspect is of course Tayschren, since he is a known powerful summoner.

How ever, since we learn in MoI of Nightchills plan to take Dragnipur, it's worth considering that some of these demons were her work. She was the one that killed Akaronys.

Everything in MoI comes from Tay himself (through Dujek), making it highly unreliable. Sure, maybe Nightchill was making a play for Dragnipur but all we have is Tay's word on it, a man who desperately has to justify his betrayal of his allies. As for Nightchill killing A'karonys, that would be quite the feat since the events goes: Kenryllah(Sp?) tearing Nightchill apart -> Bellurdan crushing Kenryllah -> A'karonys getting killed. Tayschrenn or Rake as A'karonys killer is far more likely than Nightchill as his killer.

The apology to Whiskeyjack comes from Tayschrenn - and Whiskeyjack suspects that it's not genuine with respect to himself. As for the rest of it. Ah, that conversation in MoI when Dujek and Whiskeyjack are discussing "greatest foul-ups in Imperial history", Bellurdan and Tattersail on the Rhivi Plain was first, followed closely by "that day at Pale", and I don't think that all that's coming from Tayschrenn. Tayschrenn had been grooming Tattersail for the role of Mistress of the Deck (ambitious bastards, the Malazans). It's the point at which the series gets _really_ complicated

Dujek said:

Tayschrenn really believed he could take down Moon's Spawn - and force Rake into the open. And had he not been left virtually on his own in the attack things might well have turned out differently. From what I learned later (but from who!?), Tayschrenn didn't know at the time who Nightchill really was, but knew she was closing in on Rake's sword. Her and Bellurdan, who she was using to do her research for her (note that it was mentioned that Bellurdan had been sent to study some new scrolls of Gothos' Folly, although Calot says that Tayschrenn sent him). It looked like a play for power, and Laseen wasn't prepared to permit that. And even then, Tayschrenn only hit her when she took out A'Karonys, the very High Mage who came to Tayschrenn with his suspicions about her.

But then there's the order of deaths in the battle mentioned above. Hood's breath, it's confusing. In an earlier conversation, Topper tells Paran that Dujek is going to be "defanged", but it turns out to be a ploy - anything involving the Malazan Empire seems to be buried in several layers of mis-direction, with very few knowing what's actually going on. FWIW, it makes no sense for Tayschrenn to have attacked Tattersail (assuming Dujek and Whiskeyjack were correct in their statements about Tattersail as Mistress of the Deck), so that makes things even murkier. ARGH!

[D'rek]

If it weren't for A'Karonys dying after Nightchill, the Dujek/Tayschrenn version would be completely believable. Perhaps Nightchill used a spell that was continuously onslaughting A'Karonys and continued after her death, but he ran out of energy and couldn't defend himself against it anymore (weird but pseudo-plausible if you dearly want to believe Tay).

Two other things:
1-The BBs were in the tunnels for years, when even Tattersail's mages couldn't find the bottom of the iron deposits or whatever couldn't be tunneled through. While I'm sure Tayschrenn might genuinely have thought it'd be a safe place during the mage assault, this order from high command (beyond Dujek) years before still doesn't make any sense (I would chalk this up to a nameless idiot in Unta, but shouldn't Dujek outrank anyone except the Empress and the Adjunct? Unless there's another High Fist at the time other than Pormqual and Dujek who could be an idiot)
2-Hairlock was expecting the 3 High Mages joining them for the assault to be Nightchill, Bellurdan and A'Karonys, which to me gives credency to Tay's version of events, the way those 3 were all involved in Nightchill going for Dragnipur (A'Karonys found out about it and told Tay)

[XIcy Hot Patchx]

Here is another question: When, where, and why did this deal between Quick Ben, Kalam, and Hairlock occur? Also, do we ever learn any more details about Quick Ben's envolvement as a member of the Shadow Realm (or whatever he was)?

[Sinisdar Toste]

the Shadow Cult and yes there are some more tidbits. juicy tidbits.

[Aptorian]

I chalk down Ako's premature death to MoI being a retcon of GotMs storyline. We also learn later that Sorry was suppsed to have aided the empire in taking down the Panion Seer, not killed the empress. That's also contrary to what we see in GotM.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on May 28 2009, 08:19 AM, said:

I chalk down Ako's premature death to MoI being a retcon of GotMs storyline. We also learn later that Sorry was suppsed to have aided the empire in taking down the Panion Seer, not killed the empress. That's also contrary to what we see in GotM.

I seem to remember SE in some interview stating that what we saw of the battle of Pale was seen as it was supposed to, no retcon.

[MTS]

D'rek, on May 28 2009, 08:23 AM, said:

If it weren't for A'Karonys dying after Nightchill, the Dujek/Tayschrenn version would be completely believable. Perhaps Nightchill used a spell that was continuously onslaughting A'Karonys and continued after her death, but he ran out of energy and couldn't defend himself against it anymore (weird but pseudo-plausible if you dearly want to believe Tay).

Two other things:
1-The BBs were in the tunnels for years, when even Tattersail's mages couldn't find the bottom of the iron deposits or whatever couldn't be tunneled through. While I'm sure Tayschrenn might genuinely have thought it'd be a safe place during the mage assault, this order from high command (beyond Dujek) years before still doesn't make any sense (I would chalk this up to a nameless idiot in Unta, but shouldn't Dujek outrank anyone except the Empress and the Adjunct? Unless there's another High Fist at the time other than Pormqual and Dujek who could be an idiot)

I suspected the banishment of the BB's to the tunnels to be just that - a banishment. Whoever sent them down there wanted them out of the way. Maybe they just wanted Whiskeyjack out of the way, as he is/was a respected commander and an ally of Dujek. Or, perhaps, it was to remove the number of players in the game, as the BB's would have been too busy fighting for their lives to assist the siege in any way. That's how I interpret their situation anyway. Tayschrenn sending them down there to be safe? Please. If you want to keep a certain company safe, you don't send them underground right under the point you'll be attacking/throwing munitions/sending magefire at. It was to isolate them and reduce their influence in the 2nd.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 28 May 2009 - 08:23 AM

[D'rek]

XIcy Hot Patchx, on May 27 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Here is another question: When, where, and why did this deal between Quick Ben, Kalam, and Hairlock occur? Also, do we ever learn any more details about Quick Ben's envolvement as a member of the Shadow Realm (or whatever he was)?

As explained in GotM, Hairlock was sent into the tunnels to chat with the BBs sometime shortly before the mage assault, and knowing what was coming he struck the deal while down there.

Yes you will learn more about QB's involvement with Shadow, though the more you learn the more confusing it can get.

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 28 2009, 03:22 AM, said:

I suspected the banishment of the BB's to the tunnels to be just that - a banishment. Whoever sent them down there wanted them out of the way. Maybe they just wanted Whiskeyjack out of the way, as he is/was a respected commander and an ally of Dujek. Or, perhaps, it was to remove the number of players in the game, as the BB's would have been too busy fighting for their lives to assist the siege in any way. That's how I interpret their situation anyway. Tayschrenn sending them down there to be safe? Please. If you want to keep a certain company safe, you don't send them underground right under the point you'll be attacking/throwing munitions/sending magefire at. It was to isolate them and reduce their influence in the 2nd.

There's no reason to assume the tunnels were directly under the mage assault location, the city was encircled after all. Besides, tons of troops on the surface got completely obliterated, so I could see the presumable saftey of being in the tunnels.

[IWishIWasBlank]

I think we forgot another important point here...

I believe it was in either GotM or DG that Anomander Rake mentioned the fact that (indirect quote)

"Tayschrenn had released demons all over the plain and I was doing all I could to minimize the damage they were causing."

I don't think this fully explained what `Sail had seen: Tayschrenn turning and totally smoking one of the sorcerers in their cadre.

But I don't remember which one he appeared to attack...
- or whether that in fact was one of the apparitions was supposed to have summoned who attacked...
- or if he was trying to protect the cadre from the apparitions summoned by both Tayschrenn and Rake, because IIRC Rake had summoned a few apparitions, or

Spoiler

perhaps a couple of the T'iste Andii had taken their soletaken forms as

dragons.

The whole battle was a mess, which you discover as you read through DG and MoI, and it sounds like a bit more is explained as you continue reading.

The Tayschrenn account has some merit, but he's probably no more reliable than Hairlock when it comes to telling the truth.

Rake on the other hand, I don't see as making up lies about what was going on out there... after three books into the series, I haven't seen any indication that there's a reason for him to lie about anything. As you learn more about the T'iste Andii, you realize why his attitude is the way it is, especially in MoI.

My two (and at this length more like five) cents.

Edit: Make that six cents. Again, IIRC, the BB's were tunneling to get under the walls or something dumb like that... but how deep were the walls? I think another explanation for why they were down there (other than protection) shows up in DG or MoI, perhaps it was something from Fid in DG, dunno.

This post has been edited by IWishIWasBlank: 28 May 2009 - 02:32 PM

[D'rek]

IWishIWasBlank, on May 28 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Edit: Make that six cents. Again, IIRC, the BB's were tunneling to get under the walls or something dumb like that... but how deep were the walls? I think another explanation for why they were down there (other than protection) shows up in DG or MoI, perhaps it was something from Fid in DG, dunno.

The depth of the walls is explained mentally by 'Sail in GotM, pretty sure.

[BurnedBridge]

It's worth bearing in mind that the battle of Pale was seen from Tattersail's perspective and she had no idea at all what the hell was going on.

Whiskeyjack suspected that it was an attempt to kill him, and indeed the BB's had been shoved first into every nasty engagement since Laseen took the throne. This is the first place you get hints that Laseen's not some lunatic, really - she "taught Kellenved that tactical placement leads to results, not the other way around" and Dujek mentions "that's why we inverted the command structure" - for some reason the Empire felt that it needed capable people on the ground at all times. You also hear about "mortal Empires should not be thinking in such long terms".

One could conclude that shoving the BB's into nasty situations was because they tended to come out of those situations and win, and was entirely intentional, but assigning them the task of undermining the walls was stupid.

One question that was never really answered for me was WHY did Nightchill want Dragnipur?

[D'rek]

BurnedBridge, on Jun 1 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

[...] and Dujek mentions "that's why we inverted the command structure" - for some reason the Empire felt that it needed capable people on the ground at all times. [...]

Supposedly (according to Dujek and WJ anyway), this was in anticipation of a move by Kellanved, but whether that means The Return (K&D's return to claim the ST), or else if its referring to their attempt at vengeance (ie Itko Kan and then Sorry), is not fully explained.

BurnedBridge, on Jun 1 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

[...] One question that was never really answered for me was WHY did Nightchill want Dragnipur?

I don't think its ever directly stated, but based on her communique with Paran in MoI, I personally think it was because Rake wasn't killing enough with Dragnipur and so she felt the need to steal it from Rake and go around killing a bunch of ascendants/dragons/etc to bolster the legion of chained folk within, though it also seems this was a temporary measure and then she intended to break it.