[masan's saddle]

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but anyway...

Does anyone think Oppon will make an appearance in the next novel and if so in what capacity ?

Also, who could they actually be ? They are not Elder and as they are twins, is it possible that they are the offspring of another Ascendent(s) ? Where would their aspect of luck/chance have stemmed from ?

Just throwing it out there, any ideas would be appreciated.

[Aptorian]

The Twins are, more or less, the same as the Errant. So it would seem that they fullfill the slot in the House system that the Errant did in the Hold days.

Personally I love the Twins and I think its sad that Erikson has chosen not to use them more in this story.

Its rather... unbelievable that the Twins haven't gotten more involved than they have. You'd think messing around with continent spanning conflicts and ascendant convergences would be something they really enjoyed. Guess they're just too chicken.

[Blend]

Aptorian, on May 8 2009, 07:41 PM, said:

The Twins are, more or less, the same as the Errant. So it would seem that they fullfill the slot in the House system that the Errant did in the Hold days.

Personally I love the Twins and I think its sad that Erikson has chosen not to use them more in this story.

Its rather... unbelievable that the Twins haven't gotten more involved than they have. You'd think messing around with continent spanning conflicts and ascendant convergences would be something they really enjoyed. Guess they're just too chicken.

I think that what Paran did to the male one in MOI sorta turned them off from meddling. Didn't he like make them swear they would stay out of it? Or someone else?

[masan's saddle]

I know he threatened to chuck the male twin into the KG gate under the wagon in Dragnipur, instead using him as a bait for the hounds. What did he do in MOI ?

[Blend]

masan's saddle, on May 8 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

I know he threatened to chuck the male twin into the KG gate under the wagon in Dragnipur, instead using him as a bait for the hounds. What did he do in MOI ?

Mixed my books up, meant GotM, sorry!

[masan's saddle]

Blend, on May 8 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

masan's saddle, on May 8 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

I know he threatened to chuck the male twin into the KG gate under the wagon in Dragnipur, instead using him as a bait for the hounds. What did he do in MOI ?

Mixed my books up, meant GotM, sorry!

No drama

I'm just gutted there wasn't a snippet from MOI that i'd missed !

[Sinisdar Toste]

and then obo blew up the tower they were sitting atop in the end of tBH. i think that the other ascendant powers would really hate it if oponn got more involved with things and so they take pains to keep the twins from meddling. if they really screwed things up, like pushed the child god to ignore ditches words and stab anomander... well i shudder to think. therefore ST had to have obo blow them up and knock them out of commission for awhile

[Aptorian]

Meh, the problem I have with Oponn missing in most of the story is that you'd think they were drawn to big events. It would be their purpose to watch the events and then give things a small nudge. One twin acting for the greater good, the other out of malice. They could have seperate mortal swords in opposition with each other, cultist fighting each other, etc.

It seems to me that Erikson created a great Malazan Trickster god, and then chose to just not use it after GotM. Sad. I like trickster gods.

[Assail]

Aptorian, on May 8 2009, 11:41 AM, said:

The Twins are, more or less, the same as the Errant. So it would seem that they fullfill the slot in the House system that the Errant did in the Hold days.

Personally I love the Twins and I think its sad that Erikson has chosen not to use them more in this story.

Its rather... unbelievable that the Twins haven't gotten more involved than they have. You'd think messing around with continent spanning conflicts and ascendant convergences would be something they really enjoyed. Guess they're just too chicken.

Doesn't the Errant also act as Master of the Holds? RG talks about a war between the Errant and Paran kinda

[MTS]

Ganath tells us in BH that the Errant is also the personification of change, as well as the Master of the Holds. So he has two "aspects", as it were. "His enemy was ennui, and that is why the Forkrul Assail sought to annihilate him".

[D'rek]

He was originally just the Master of the Holds (though his role's history supposedly goes back to the creation of malaziworld according to the readings, but let's ignore that). He eventually didn't like or got tired of his pointless role and all the sacrifices so he altered himself to have the new aspect of change. Not that he ceased being the Master of the Tiles, though.

Of course, it being Lether at that point with their Empty Hold and crazy ideas, the Errant's "change" is very much the manifestation of the Letheri's favourite concept - destiny. Unlike Oponn's "change" which is all about complete luck, good or bad. All in all it's kind of moot, both can achieve the same thing, but the flavour is a bit different.

As for Oponn, they did say that they could end up dead if they didn't understand all the players. Maybe ST was sneaky enough to avoid their notice and Obo killed them after all. Surely if they'd understood all the players they wouldn't have still been on that tower when Obo blasted it...

[blackzoid]

One could argue that with Corrab mixed in with the Bonehunters, Oponn are planning something.

[masan's saddle]

I was thinking along the lines that there is a connection. The Errant was Master of the Holds and there are definatley similarities between him and Oponn. Paran Is Master of the Deck and his sword is called "Chance". Wasn't it also blessed by Oponn ? I Know Paran bitchslapped Oponn out of the game, but I think we will see them again as they were paramount in getting "the ball rolling" in GotM. Arguably Paran's promotion to Master of the Deck came from the initial actions of Oponn if one follows the theory of cause and effect ?

I'm not sure but we might well hear the sound of a spinning coin again !

Crazy theory, are Oponn the Errant's kids ?

[lobo the wolfman]

Remember that Paran give up his sword 'Chance' to Cotillion at the end of Gotm. It was impled that a item bleesed by a god can be used agaist them as well if one knows how. They could just be staying low out of fear that Cot or ST would use the sword to hurt them, or give to somebody else, eg Rake.

[masan's saddle]

lobo the wolfman, on May 12 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

Remember that Paran give up his sword 'Chance' to Cotillion at the end of Gotm. It was impled that a item bleesed by a god can be used agaist them as well if one knows how. They could just be staying low out of fear that Cot or ST would use the sword to hurt them, or give to somebody else, eg Rake.

Yeh, sorry I should have said "was" his sword

Still, Cotillion does still have it.

Also, consider how long before GotM's events started Paran named the sword, were Oponn involved that far back ?

Dunno, I just feel that the actions ( and subsequent reactions) of some of the main protagonists are purely the result of Oponn's involvement ( Paran, Crokus etc) and whilst they may have wussed out on a few occasions, if Oponn are playing the long game they can afford to lay low. It's their nature and aspect after all to push and pull and I feel quite a few characters are going to need a bit of luck in the coming books !

I've seen the phrase GotMism's around a few times and their initial involvement may be an example of this.

I also may be just a shameless fan of tricksy bastards.

[Blend]

masan's saddle, on May 12 2009, 12:50 AM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on May 12 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

Remember that Paran give up his sword 'Chance' to Cotillion at the end of Gotm. It was impled that a item bleesed by a god can be used agaist them as well if one knows how. They could just be staying low out of fear that Cot or ST would use the sword to hurt them, or give to somebody else, eg Rake.

Yeh, sorry I should have said "was" his sword

Still, Cotillion does still have it.

Also, consider how long before GotM's events started Paran named the sword, were Oponn involved that far back ?

Dunno, I just feel that the actions ( and subsequent reactions) of some of the main protagonists are purely the result of Oponn's involvement ( Paran, Crokus etc) and whilst they may have wussed out on a few occasions, if Oponn are playing the long game they can afford to lay low. It's their nature and aspect after all to push and pull and I feel quite a few characters are going to need a bit of luck in the coming books !

I've seen the phrase GotMism's around a few times and their initial involvement may be an example of this.

I also may be just a shameless fan of tricksy bastards.

I don't think their involvement was a GotMism at all. After their stint with Paran and Crokus, they took up with Corab. Cotillion has their sword, which they probably did not expect or want, but they're still involved via Corabb as is. Who knows why though?

[dawnkiller]

Maybe Cot and ST are intentionally using the sword to mitigate Oponn's interference? It's been implied many times that the link between god and worshipper/invested is two-way, so keeping the sword may be insurance. I mean, if you're a careful planner like ST, probably the last thing you want or need is the intervention of blind luck, good or bad. It's not just about winning, it's about winning and making sure you still come out on top in the end. Since the Twins generally strike me as a bunch of jerkasses, it's not too hard to imagine that they'd take the first chance they had to screw over him and just about anyone else. Corabb may be the one piece they're allowed to have in the game.

(Plus, they have an excuse for being absent in the previous Lether stuff -- they didn't exist on that continent. One presumes that with Corabb there now, they have a path to follow . . .)

[Dammon]

dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Maybe Cot and ST are intentionally using the sword to mitigate Oponn's interference? It's been implied many times that the link between god and worshipper/invested is two-way, so keeping the sword may be insurance. I mean, if you're a careful planner like ST, probably the last thing you want or need is the intervention of blind luck, good or bad. It's not just about winning, it's about winning and making sure you still come out on top in the end. Since the Twins generally strike me as a bunch of jerkasses, it's not too hard to imagine that they'd take the first chance they had to screw over him and just about anyone else. Corabb may be the one piece they're allowed to have in the game.

(Plus, they have an excuse for being absent in the previous Lether stuff -- they didn't exist on that continent. One presumes that with Corabb there now, they have a path to follow . . .)

It it just me or does anyone else see a potential Errant VS Oponn fight at some point? Especially now that Oponn has someone in the errants vicinity.

[D'rek]

Dammon, on May 12 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 01:14 AM, said:

Maybe Cot and ST are intentionally using the sword to mitigate Oponn's interference? It's been implied many times that the link between god and worshipper/invested is two-way, so keeping the sword may be insurance. I mean, if you're a careful planner like ST, probably the last thing you want or need is the intervention of blind luck, good or bad. It's not just about winning, it's about winning and making sure you still come out on top in the end. Since the Twins generally strike me as a bunch of jerkasses, it's not too hard to imagine that they'd take the first chance they had to screw over him and just about anyone else. Corabb may be the one piece they're allowed to have in the game.

(Plus, they have an excuse for being absent in the previous Lether stuff -- they didn't exist on that continent. One presumes that with Corabb there now, they have a path to follow . . .)

It it just me or does anyone else see a potential Errant VS Oponn fight at some point? Especially now that Oponn has someone in the errants vicinity.

I doubt it, it just doesn't seem like they would even have a "fight". I can't think of how exactly they would strike at each other... then again I'm the one who thinks they're dead.

(btw, I suspect that ST knew where the twins were because of the sword given by Paran in GotM)

[Bauchelain the Evil]

D'rek, on May 16 2009, 12:23 AM, said:

(btw, I suspect that ST knew where the twins were because of the sword given by Paran in GotM)

It's higly probable that this was indeed how ST localized them, but there's also the fact that ST was rigt there in Malaz Island and so it mustn't have been difficult for him to feel the presence of a nearby god(s)