[Serc]

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 09:21 AM, said:

Ampelas, on May 10 2009, 05:14 PM, said:

Sorry what?

galain revealed as rezzik and he claims tennes was his partner who was inigo.

emur revealed as inigio

i revealed as fezzik.

rashan revealed as partnered to tennes as king and queen (lovers)

Gailain came up as town, therefore either galain is a symp or the entire evil team decided to reveal for the sole purpose of removing ja.

It doesnt take a genius to realise that ja was lying and that we now have 4 PI (me, you, emur, rashan)

there are ten players left, hp cannot be the last killer as he has missed too many days and so wasnt here to put in actions. in fact the only people whop could be the last killer and have chosen ano are

omtose
korvalain
me
you
rashan
emur

4 of the pi's!!!

so its either omtose or korvalain. korvalain i feel is a symp, so my bet is on omtose.

remove vote

vote omtose

I'm just looking this over and over and I can't help but think it's full of wine.

If you and Emur are scum (and Fener was a partner?) and Rashan and Tennes were your symps, you have 3 people right now and a bad lynch tonight puts the game one night from your victory (1 lynch + 1 kill, assuming this scenario Emur has no vig I'd guess). So... the counter argument is naturally, "Then after inno/inno CFs, you proceed to lynch all 3 of us in short order, and win the game, so clearly we aren't the scum because if we mess up this mass reveal, we lose."

Completely valid counter-argument, and assuming it did happen this way, I'm at a loss to think how you could talk your way out of it, yet here you are talking your way out of the original plan.

Now the inverse, let's say you are legit and Galain was a symp. Why did you blow your wad on his lynch in return for your own? Why would Rashan randomly reveal (saying that he figured he would since everyone else was doing it, aka peer pressure lol)? He even admits it makes him look bad, which is mostly stating the obvious. Best I can figure is, you were so damned confident that Galain would CF inno you went all in on the bet. Problem is, flop came up 5 9 A and you're holding K K, so now you look just weird for pushing a case on someone who we can't actually determine if he was lying.

It's circular. If I assume you're innocent, the logical counter-argument is that you could easily not be and be hoping to press a lynch tomorrow anyway with your persuasive powers, or possibly sacrificing one of your scum partners to try and clear the others (maybe Rashan?). All I come up with is I really DON'T know if you are telling the truth and it's again your word against Galain's (post-mortem).

But, I think Ampelas's word may be the strongest here for being CI, which is why I still haven't voted.

Also, sorry for the poker reference.

[Serc]

Not editing above, but just clearing up my stream-of-consciousness stuff when I read it over.

If I assume you are lying, you killed Tennes on accident and Rashan is revealing that he's a symp with you to try and give you PI for this vote (plus to save his bacon). This means you are probably sacing yourself and Emur for Rashan, which is actually pretty damn unlikely, so now I'm really not sure again about the plan.

[Serc]

I dunno. It's unlikely when I read it to myself, but maybe that's the plan... make it so unlikely that nobody could bet it's real.

But would you risk throwing the game over it? Seems so damn unlikely if you've played it this far on good ground... but if it gives you one more day to talk your way through it, maybe? Ugh, doesn't seem likely but the OC person in me says go with the routine.

[Serc]

What say the lurkers? Does this lonely tornado get to talk to himself?

[Korvalain]

Emurlahn, on May 10 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

Korvalain, on May 10 2009, 08:17 PM, said:

Vote Emurlahn


that was the plan. Now if Emur comes up inno, we lynch Gamelon.

You feel that there's a chance Galain was indeed inno and not a symp? Because if you don't, there's really no reason to vote for me...

Got no reason at the moment to believe Galain was a symp. Need to make sure by lynching you. If you CF inno, we know we got a symp for sure. Just to make myself perfectly clear.

[Korvalain]

Sorry Serc, bed time.

[Rashan]

Serc, man, you weren't really paying attention were you?

I revealed because Galain claimed that Tennes was paired with him, when the entire game Tennes has been my partner and filling my inbox. I revealed as a counter-claim against Galain's lies and ended up hammering him. It wasn't random. It was bad for me that Galain came up inno, like I said, because he was lying his face off. 3 seperate people counter-claimed against JA and that doesn't seem like a scum tactic.

I want to trust Game for now and give Emur a chance to prove himself with that vig so I will

vote Omtose

I need to get to sleep now since I have work early in the morning, not sure if I'll be able to get on in the morning but I'll likely be gone for a while since I have 8 hours of fun.

[Korvalain]

So Ive been thinking. It wouldnt be impossible to believe that JA was telling the truth, and that emur is the last killer. 2 killers with 4 symos. Possibly Game,Rash, and any one else, would gladly take a bullet for Emur, if this was the case. Now back to bed. Just needed to get that tought out there.

[Serc]

Rashan, on May 10 2009, 08:56 AM, said:

Well it doesn't matter now that everyone has been revealing.

Tennes and I were the king/ queen respectively. We were roleless inno who could talk together, which happened on occasion. I was planning on getting us to reveal at endgame since neither of us wanted to code, which I found was a mistake after he died... I didn't see that coming, though I shouldn't be surprised since he was clearly inno.

so hopefully coming in and catching Galain like that helps prove me.

After the lynch...

Rashan, on May 10 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

wow, that was... unexpected.

How can Galain not be scum? God this makes me look terrible now, but I am not lying.

Rashan, on May 10 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

no I'm calm just thought I had it all figured out.

Galain's tennes reveal post worked perfectly for him because tennes had died the night before. So it would seem that Galain did that to make his reveal work. But he isn't the killer, which means that perhaps the scum can speak with their symps, which wouldn't be cool.

Probably your most redeeming line, or your most "SH laughing at the innos" line. TMDI 2? No way that this happens... right?

[Emurlahn]

Serc, on May 11 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 09:21 AM, said:

Ampelas, on May 10 2009, 05:14 PM, said:

Sorry what?

galain revealed as rezzik and he claims tennes was his partner who was inigo.

emur revealed as inigio

i revealed as fezzik.

rashan revealed as partnered to tennes as king and queen (lovers)

Gailain came up as town, therefore either galain is a symp or the entire evil team decided to reveal for the sole purpose of removing ja.

It doesnt take a genius to realise that ja was lying and that we now have 4 PI (me, you, emur, rashan)

there are ten players left, hp cannot be the last killer as he has missed too many days and so wasnt here to put in actions. in fact the only people whop could be the last killer and have chosen ano are

omtose
korvalain
me
you
rashan
emur

4 of the pi's!!!

so its either omtose or korvalain. korvalain i feel is a symp, so my bet is on omtose.

remove vote

vote omtose

I'm just looking this over and over and I can't help but think it's full of wine.

If you and Emur are scum (and Fener was a partner?) and Rashan and Tennes were your symps, you have 3 people right now and a bad lynch tonight puts the game one night from your victory (1 lynch + 1 kill, assuming this scenario Emur has no vig I'd guess). So... the counter argument is naturally, "Then after inno/inno CFs, you proceed to lynch all 3 of us in short order, and win the game, so clearly we aren't the scum because if we mess up this mass reveal, we lose."

Completely valid counter-argument, and assuming it did happen this way, I'm at a loss to think how you could talk your way out of it, yet here you are talking your way out of the original plan.

Now the inverse, let's say you are legit and Galain was a symp. Why did you blow your wad on his lynch in return for your own? Why would Rashan randomly reveal (saying that he figured he would since everyone else was doing it, aka peer pressure lol)? He even admits it makes him look bad, which is mostly stating the obvious. Best I can figure is, you were so damned confident that Galain would CF inno you went all in on the bet. Problem is, flop came up 5 9 A and you're holding K K, so now you look just weird for pushing a case on someone who we can't actually determine if he was lying.

It's circular. If I assume you're innocent, the logical counter-argument is that you could easily not be and be hoping to press a lynch tomorrow anyway with your persuasive powers, or possibly sacrificing one of your scum partners to try and clear the others (maybe Rashan?). All I come up with is I really DON'T know if you are telling the truth and it's again your word against Galain's (post-mortem).

But, I think Ampelas's word may be the strongest here for being CI, which is why I still haven't voted.

Also, sorry for the poker reference.

Let me try and convince you that Galain was lying then.

Consider his reveal: 'Rezzik' (sic) a finder paired to Inigo Montoya. Now, why would they be finders? He claims that they are hunting for Inigo's father...but Inigo's father is dead, he was killed by Count Rugen. So that makes no sense. His claim seems highly unsatisfactory in comparison to the counter-claims of myself and Gamelon: that Inigo Montoya is a vig and that Fezzik is a guard with BP, which fit far more accurately with the source material givne that Inigo is an expert swordsman and Fezzik is a giant.

Then there's the fact that he claimed he got given my CF as Vizzini, despite the fact that for the previous two he'd only got 'town'. Does that not seem odd? The lynch scenes don't give player names, why should the finds? He couldn't say he'd been given the names of the players he claimed to have cleared because he didn't actually know what they were, and it would have given him away if he'd tried.

Now, he claims he exchanged codes with Tennes. As evidence of this he produces an encoded post from Day 2 with Tennes' name in it. But this seems to be a very atypical arrangement he had with Tennes. If you are paired and you code something, you do it early (ie. Day 1), and you damn well make sure that you know where your partner's code is. Without the other half, there is no point in doing it, and I don't for one second buy that someone with JA's experience would overlook such a crucial piece of information. So that was strange on two counts.

Now, remember that there is no communication between Master and Symp. So hypothetically, if Gamelon and I were killers and Rashan was a symp, Rash would have had to have independently come to the conclusion that this was the plan Gamelon and myself had concocted and gambled that there was noone else alive with the role of King or Queen to counterclaim. Why bother to counterclaim at all? He could just have claimed he felt Galain should be lynched first and dropped the hammer without. It seems an unnecessary complication to the plan.

As you have rightly pointed out, even if your scenario were true, it wouldn't win the game for the scum. Given the likeliness that one of us is going to be on the chopping block tomorrow should we not hit scum today, it's not a very good plan really.


EDIT: Crosspost

This post has been edited by Emurlahn: 11 May 2009 - 03:23 AM

[Serc]

Like I said, it's COMPLETELY bad play to throw your whole team in the open like that which is what is really the best argument against you as scum. But then why randomly reveal?! Especially a pointless role with 0 proof? The only rationale I have is if you know Game/Emur are going down and you realize you can VPI yourself, why wouldn't you?

And really? Tennes filled your inbox? Because he had nothing to say on the thread until his awesome Fener post. Seriously, the new guy, out of nowhere, picks a scum (I think he said it before even Ampelas, gonna check)? I mean, how crazy would that be for the symp to drop a hat on his scum master to get VPI and catch a train to the end of the game? It's almost ridiculous considering how long it took us to find a scum. But then Tennes got killed instead, possibly as a provisional for randomly bringing up Fener.

I dunno man, there's just enough fucking pieces in place that it's stupid enough of an idea to work.

edit: xposted

This post has been edited by Serc: 11 May 2009 - 03:30 AM

[Serc]

Emurlahn, on May 10 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

Let me try and convince you that Galain was lying then.

Consider his reveal: 'Rezzik' (sic) a finder paired to Inigo Montoya. Now, why would they be finders? He claims that they are hunting for Inigo's father...but Inigo's father is dead, he was killed by Count Rugen. So that makes no sense. His claim seems highly unsatisfactory in comparison to the counter-claims of myself and Gamelon: that Inigo Montoya is a vig and that Fezzik is a guard with BP, which fit far more accurately with the source material givne that Inigo is an expert swordsman and Fezzik is a giant.

Then there's the fact that he claimed he got given my CF as Vizzini, despite the fact that for the previous two he'd only got 'town'. Does that not seem odd? The lynch scenes don't give player names, why should the finds? He couldn't say he'd been given the names of the players he claimed to have cleared because he didn't actually know what they were, and it would have given him away if he'd tried.

Now, he claims he exchanged codes with Tennes. As evidence of this he produces an encoded post from Day 2 with Tennes' name in it. But this seems to be a very atypical arrangement he had with Tennes. If you are paired and you code something, you do it early (ie. Day 1), and you damn well make sure that you know where your partner's code is. Without the other half, there is no point in doing it, and I don't for one second buy that someone with JA's experience would overlook such a crucial piece of information. So that was strange on two counts.

Now, remember that there is no communication between Master and Symp. So hypothetically, if Gamelon and I were killers and Rashan was a symp, Rash would have had to have independently come to the conclusion that this was the plan Gamelon and myself had concocted and gambled that there was noone else alive with the role of King or Queen to counterclaim. Why bother to counterclaim at all? He could just have claimed he felt Galain should be lynched first and dropped the hammer without. It seems an unnecessary complication to the plan.

As you have rightly pointed out, even if your scenario were true, it wouldn't win the game for the scum. Given the likeliness that one of us is going to be on the chopping block tomorrow should we not hit scum today, it's not a very good plan really.


EDIT: Crosspost

No way dude! By the post, they are looking for the guy who killed his father, not the father...

Galain, on May 10 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

i am inclined to believe emur because i am not paired,m and he didnt claim paired. why would ingio and fezzik be finders? use your fucking brains.

To paraphrase and avoid modkill, I'm here to help him find who killed his father.

Finds vs CFs I will agree with you, that's crazy. All I can think of is Inigo is hunting for the guy who killed his father and may have the find ability to simply find Rugen. But yes, I would have guessed vig/guard as inigo/fez NOT paired finders. Maybe special finder+vig/guard.

JA was hella experienced but toddreefstick(sp?) is brand new. Rashan's counter reveal is basically the same--we never got to put up coding.

I already addressed the Rash meta-guessing.

edit: combined with Rashan's double "oops I posted that I had read before I finished catching up" it just REALLY comes off suspicious.

I'll agree it seems like bad play but the story isn't as bulletproof as I want to just string up Omtose. If he comes back Inno, what then? We argue a new case again tomorrow?

This post has been edited by Serc: 11 May 2009 - 03:38 AM

[Emurlahn]

Serc, on May 11 2009, 04:37 AM, said:

No way dude! By the post, they are looking for the guy who killed his father, not the father...

Galain, on May 10 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

i am inclined to believe emur because i am not paired,m and he didnt claim paired. why would ingio and fezzik be finders? use your fucking brains.

To paraphrase and avoid modkill, I'm here to help him find who killed his father.

Finds vs CFs I will agree with you, that's crazy. All I can think of is Inigo is hunting for the guy who killed his father and may have the find ability to simply find Rugen. But yes, I would have guessed vig/guard as inigo/fez NOT paired finders. Maybe special finder+vig/guard.

JA was hella experienced but toddreefstick(sp?) is brand new. Rashan's counter reveal is basically the same--we never got to put up coding.

I already addressed the Rash meta-guessing.

edit: combined with Rashan's double "oops I posted that I had read before I finished catching up" it just REALLY comes off suspicious.

I'll agree it seems like bad play but the story isn't as bulletproof as I want to just string up Omtose. If he comes back Inno, what then? We argue a new case again tomorrow?

Oops, my bad. Memory was a bit off on that one then, I retract that particular part of my argument.

While I agree that the case against Omtose is not open and shut, you must remember that for me, there is no doubt in my mind about Galain being a symp, and I will act in accordance with that fact. But when I see Omtose not even considering the possibility that Galain was a symp here, it makes me very suspicious of him because he doesn't have any reason for being so sure. There should be doubt in his mind, and yet all he broadcasts is certainty.

[Serc]

Emurlahn, on May 10 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

Serc, on May 11 2009, 04:37 AM, said:

No way dude! By the post, they are looking for the guy who killed his father, not the father...

Galain, on May 10 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

i am inclined to believe emur because i am not paired,m and he didnt claim paired. why would ingio and fezzik be finders? use your fucking brains.

To paraphrase and avoid modkill, I'm here to help him find who killed his father.

Finds vs CFs I will agree with you, that's crazy. All I can think of is Inigo is hunting for the guy who killed his father and may have the find ability to simply find Rugen. But yes, I would have guessed vig/guard as inigo/fez NOT paired finders. Maybe special finder+vig/guard.

JA was hella experienced but toddreefstick(sp?) is brand new. Rashan's counter reveal is basically the same--we never got to put up coding.

I already addressed the Rash meta-guessing.

edit: combined with Rashan's double "oops I posted that I had read before I finished catching up" it just REALLY comes off suspicious.

I'll agree it seems like bad play but the story isn't as bulletproof as I want to just string up Omtose. If he comes back Inno, what then? We argue a new case again tomorrow?

Oops, my bad. Memory was a bit off on that one then, I retract that particular part of my argument.

While I agree that the case against Omtose is not open and shut, you must remember that for me, there is no doubt in my mind about Galain being a symp, and I will act in accordance with that fact. But when I see Omtose not even considering the possibility that Galain was a symp here, it makes me very suspicious of him because he doesn't have any reason for being so sure. There should be doubt in his mind, and yet all he broadcasts is certainty.

I see what you're saying BUT wouldn't be the first time a player pushed his chips just hoping he was right. Didn't you and Game just do that with Galain?

[Serc]

And I agree you should act with how you see the game in terms of your vig. My theoretical case is that you don't have a vig.

[Emurlahn]

Serc, on May 11 2009, 05:05 AM, said:

I see what you're saying BUT wouldn't be the first time a player pushed his chips just hoping he was right. Didn't you and Game just do that with Galain?

Maybe I didn't articulate myself very clearly in my previous post. Because I know my role, I was not hoping I was right - from my POV Galain was clearly lying and therefore scum. There couldn't really be any doubt on my part in that situation. See the difference?

Anyhow, I'm off to bed now, so I'm going to lay a vote down before I go.

Vote Omtose

[Serc]

Your post makes sense. Is P-S around to do a count?

edit: Is this L-2?

This post has been edited by Serc: 11 May 2009 - 04:17 AM

[Path-Shaper]

Serc, on May 11 2009, 12:15 AM, said:

Your post makes sense. Is P-S around to do a count?

edit: Is this L-2?

I'm around, but I have no access to the Manager, so I'm not sure what's going on. The wine isn't helping.

But L-2 sounds about right. But don't take my word for it.



- Kurt

[Serc]

Looks like 4 votes, so L-2.

Gamelon, on May 10 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

vote omtose

forgot that bit.

Emurlahn, on May 10 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

Serc, on May 11 2009, 05:05 AM, said:

I see what you're saying BUT wouldn't be the first time a player pushed his chips just hoping he was right. Didn't you and Game just do that with Galain?

Maybe I didn't articulate myself very clearly in my previous post. Because I know my role, I was not hoping I was right - from my POV Galain was clearly lying and therefore scum. There couldn't really be any doubt on my part in that situation. See the difference?

Anyhow, I'm off to bed now, so I'm going to lay a vote down before I go.

Vote Omtose

Ampelas, on May 10 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

Omtose you're so full of shit. I can't take it anymore.

remove vote
vote Omtose

Rashan, on May 10 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

Serc, man, you weren't really paying attention were you?

I revealed because Galain claimed that Tennes was paired with him, when the entire game Tennes has been my partner and filling my inbox. I revealed as a counter-claim against Galain's lies and ended up hammering him. It wasn't random. It was bad for me that Galain came up inno, like I said, because he was lying his face off. 3 seperate people counter-claimed against JA and that doesn't seem like a scum tactic.

I want to trust Game for now and give Emur a chance to prove himself with that vig so I will

vote Omtose

I need to get to sleep now since I have work early in the morning, not sure if I'll be able to get on in the morning but I'll likely be gone for a while since I have 8 hours of fun.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 6. 35 hours and 26 minutes remaining

10 Players still alive: Ampelas, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Korlat, Korvalain, Mockra, Omtose, Rashan, Serc

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night

4 vote for Omtose: ( Gamelon, Ampelas, Rashan, Emurlahn )
1 vote for Gamelon: ( Omtose)
1 vote for Emurlahn: (Korvalain )

4 Players not voted: Hood's Path, Korlat, Mockra, Serc