[Dolorous Menhir]

Salt-Man Z, on Apr 30 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

Sorry, but I have no context for those quotes. When Kruppe asks about the fate of the first child, and K'rul says that there never was one... ?

Kruppe is dreaming.
K'rul, Pran Chole & a pregnant Rhivi appear.
It is explained that they are there to salvage the soul of Bellurdan/Nightchill/Tattersail, currently inhabiting Nightchill's remains.
Kruppe finds B/N/T and bring him/her/it to the assembled.
The Rhivi and Pran Chole conduct a ritual in which the souls of B/N/T are transferred to the child carried by the Rhivi. She proceeds to give birth.
Kruppe becomes concerned that this process willl "overwrite" the original soul of the unborn child.
K'rul explains that this is not an issue because the unborn was "blank," it is a prepared empty vessel for the transferred souls.

[Kryphon]

I have a Nightchill question in relation to this... But I can't remember if maybe I should ask it in the MoI forum? Thats where she's brought up again, correct?

[Aptorian]

Yes. If you're asking about something MoI related, bring it there.

[D'rek]

The wickan girl had an "empty" child in her, as in a baby in her that had no soul. With the Rhivi woman, there was no child in her (the direct interpretation of what K'rul says, imo), and the pregnancy was imbued by the magic of the Moon without any child actually growing insider her (until after Tattersail got shifted in). That's my interpretation anyway. Not a very important point...

[Dolorous Menhir]

D'rek, on Apr 30 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

The wickan girl had an "empty" child in her, as in a baby in her that had no soul. With the Rhivi woman, there was no child in her (the direct interpretation of what K'rul says, imo), and the pregnancy was imbued by the magic of the Moon without any child actually growing insider her (until after Tattersail got shifted in). That's my interpretation anyway. Not a very important point...

The woman was visibly pregnant when she walked into the scene. The baby did not magically appear during the soul-shifting. And I agree, it's not very important.

[Kryphon]

Aptorian, on Apr 30 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Yes. If you're asking about something MoI related, bring it there.

My question was if that was the next book where Nightchill was brought up. I can't remember and my books aren't anywhere I can get to them right now.

[Sinreaver20]

wow some awesome replies. sorry if it seemed like i just left the topic but my internet has been out for a little while so i couldnt check it (although i am kinda glad because i just literally read the part about silverfox, and i would have been sad if i hadnt learned about it from the book)

[Kryphon]

I think the important thing to remember when reading these books is that Erickson will ALWAYS stump you and these books are tragic. Every book will have some character die that breaks your heart. There will also be parts that will leave you completely stumped for several books. That's why we can't put these things down. It's like crack.

[Mirthmonkey]

I just finished Deadhouse Gates as well and found some parts quite confusing. I think I've even forgotten some very important points in all the confusion. Such as...

1. I get that Fiddler and company somehow played a role in diverting the shapeshifters away from the true Path of Hands. But who got to the real Path of Hands, if anyone? That was said to permit access to a gate by which they could ascend, if I remember right. But the only ones poised for ascension in this book are Truth and two other soldiers.

2. I'm kind of baffled as to what put Truth and the others on the edge of ascension. Yes, they were in that screwed up warren with an insane mage where they ended up on the ship with the headless crew. They encountered some Imass there. But how did any of that experience suddenly make them near godhood?

3. I don't get Shadowthrone's motives. Perhaps they are revealed in later books. He supported the Whirlwind, which of course is a huge rebellion against the empire he once ruled. So first I thought maybe he wants to get back at Laseen. But then at the end he doesn't seem too upset that Kalam didn't kill Laseen.

4. On a related note, Kalam seems awfully easily convinced by Laseen's claim that she only assassinated Kellenved and Dancer with immense regret because she thought it was necessary for the Empire. There's no explanation of why. Perhaps in later books? Though it still isn't clear why Kalam accepts it without explanation.

5. The whole motivation for Fiddler and company to use an Azath to reach Malaz seems a bit far fetched. Instead of just taking a boat, they go looking for an Azath in the middle of a huge desert in the hopes that Quick Ben's hunch is correct and they can travel from that Azath to the one in Malaz City? Sheesh. Personally I'd vote for the boat.

[D'rek]

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

1. I get that Fiddler and company somehow played a role in diverting the shapeshifters away from the true Path of Hands. But who got to the real Path of Hands, if anyone? That was said to permit access to a gate by which they could ascend, if I remember right. But the only ones poised for ascension in this book are Truth and two other soldiers.

Nobody was required to reach the gate under Pust's temple, they were all diverted except Mogora (who says she doesn't care about it), so none reached the gate. If any hadn't been deceived Olar Ethil was there to whoop some ass.

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

2. I'm kind of baffled as to what put Truth and the others on the edge of ascension. Yes, they were in that screwed up warren with an insane mage where they ended up on the ship with the headless crew. They encountered some Imass there. But how did any of that experience suddenly make them near godhood?

The insane mage and the T'lan Imass don't really have anything to do it. After that, Kulp tried to get them out of there by taking them into the Shadow realm and the water rushing in is bad for the realm, so the undead dragon flying by helped Kulp close it, upon which the Shadow wraiths jumped on the dragon. To shed them off the dragon opened a fire warren

Spoiler

, Kurald Thyrllan,

to get rid of them and the Silanda then plunged more or less straight into this big wave of cleansing fire. This affected Baudin, Kulp and the three marines, and that is why they are special and dense and whatnot.

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

3. I don't get Shadowthrone's motives. Perhaps they are revealed in later books. He supported the Whirlwind, which of course is a huge rebellion against the empire he once ruled. So first I thought maybe he wants to get back at Laseen. But then at the end he doesn't seem too upset that Kalam didn't kill Laseen.

Being mysterious and multi-motived is his thing, though personally I don't really see that he supported the Whirlwind...

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

4. On a related note, Kalam seems awfully easily convinced by Laseen's claim that she only assassinated Kellenved and Dancer with immense regret because she thought it was necessary for the Empire. There's no explanation of why. Perhaps in later books? Though it still isn't clear why Kalam accepts it without explanation.

Well part of it is that he was convinced, and the other part is that he realizes Laseen isn't really there and even if he went on to Unta she'd just run by warren again and leave him another city full of Claws (or worse), so I think he was pretty resigned to not being able to accomplish this after all.

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

5. The whole motivation for Fiddler and company to use an Azath to reach Malaz seems a bit far fetched. Instead of just taking a boat, they go looking for an Azath in the middle of a huge desert in the hopes that Quick Ben's hunch is correct and they can travel from that Azath to the one in Malaz City? Sheesh. Personally I'd vote for the boat.

Yeah, I got nothing for that, it definitely seems like that would have been an easier option...

[Salt-Man Z]

D'rek, on May 28 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

Mirthmonkey, on May 28 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

5. The whole motivation for Fiddler and company to use an Azath to reach Malaz seems a bit far fetched. Instead of just taking a boat, they go looking for an Azath in the middle of a huge desert in the hopes that Quick Ben's hunch is correct and they can travel from that Azath to the one in Malaz City? Sheesh. Personally I'd vote for the boat.

Yeah, I got nothing for that, it definitely seems like that would have been an easier option...

This is the only real issue I have with the book. It just makes no sense at all.

[Mirthmonkey]

D'rek, on May 28 2009, 08:09 PM, said:

Well part of it is that he was convinced, and the other part is that he realizes Laseen isn't really there and even if he went on to Unta she'd just run by warren again and leave him another city full of Claws (or worse), so I think he was pretty resigned to not being able to accomplish this after all.

Of course, she'd have to know he was coming. Somehow the Claw knew this time around and tipped her off. Eh, he just seems very easy to convince given what happened to his unit and Dujek's army.
To summarize:
"You had most of my comrades slaughtered."
"Oh, that wasn't my fault. My high mage was acting on his own."
"Oh, ok."

I'm more troubled by some of what was discussed previously in this thread with Dujek apparently still loyal to the empress even after the high mage very deliberately had most of his army and especially the Bridgeburners slaughtered. I'd think at that point Dujek would do precisely jack and sh** for Laseen unless she ensured that the high mage would pay for what he did. I'm hoping the next book explains it.

[D'rek]

Mirthmonkey, on May 29 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

I'm more troubled by some of what was discussed previously in this thread with Dujek apparently still loyal to the empress even after the high mage very deliberately had most of his army and especially the Bridgeburners slaughtered. I'd think at that point Dujek would do precisely jack and sh** for Laseen unless she ensured that the high mage would pay for what he did. I'm hoping the next book explains it.

True enough, but the 3 of them and the rest of Kellanved's "family" have about 100 years of history together, so their relations with each other are confusing to say the least. But yeah, read the next book. it'll help with the Dujek issue, and maybe even a little with Kalam.

[Mirthmonkey]

D'rek, on May 30 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

True enough, but the 3 of them and the rest of Kellanved's "family" have about 100 years of history together, so their relations with each other are confusing to say the least. But yeah, read the next book. it'll help with the Dujek issue, and maybe even a little with Kalam.

I've started the next book. Part of my problem with Dujek apparently being fine with it, and loyal to the empire, is that while certainly a pragmatic man who doubtless has plenty of blood on his hands, he seems like a decent sort overall. Yet he's one of the leaders in an empire that's brought war, slaughter, and suffering to much of the world and more, he's apparently loyal to an empress who strikes me is one seriously evil b**tch. She's responsible for slaughter on an epic scale and sees no problem with ordering things like "culling" the nobles and sending people who've committed no crimes to slow, torturous deaths working in the mines. I was disappointed in Kalam choosing not to continue to hunt her.

I'm still hoping she gets what's coming to her, but so far it doesn't seem to be shaping up that way.

[coltainereborn]

Aptorian, on Apr 29 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Sinreaver20, on Apr 29 2009, 07:37 AM, said:

4. Why did shadowthrone "award" Fid, Kalam and co? I don't really understand. most of the journey seemed to be pretty useless moreso probably in tghe eyes of shadowthrone

This part is so vague in my memory. Does anyone remember if there was more to it than just helping out with the Path of Hands?

It seems that it has something to do with what they did in the path of hands, for Kalam, and Apsalar. But when Fiddler refuses to stay in Shadow with Kalam and co. ST says..

"In truth, I owe you nothing, sapper. Only Apt speaks for you. Alas, she's acquired a certain... leverage."

After that Fiddler decides to go join up with the Adjunct's army as a recruit, but ST does it as a favor to Apt, not to Fiddler, so maybe ST is not rewarding this group for the path of hands, as much as putting them in the places where they will be the most use to him.

Spoiler

For instance, Kalam and Minala stay in shadow and start to train the children, who then become the guardians of the actual throne of shadow

and Apsalar her father and Crokus are sent to the Kanese coast, where in a few months A's father dies, and Crokus and Apsalar end up on the Wandering Isle to help defend the other throne of shadow.(I think that one of these is a decoy, but I cant really remember which one).

basically ST does things for his own interest, it just seemed at the time that he was giving people what they wanted.