[Kryphon]

Are you asking if he dies in RG? He's already an ascendent, I'm positive of it. As to whether he dies... I know it isnt said in plain english what happens, but I'm equally sure he doesnt die. He'll be in future books.

[Leadslinger]

I am not sure what happens to him exactly. In what form or capacity will he be in later books I am not sure. I too think he will be, but not sure how just yet.

[dawnkiller]

Less support of anything than a curious little detail, here's Mael's thoughts on Icarium's return to Lether:

Quote

And here, long before this city was born, there stood a temple, into which Icarium walked -- as lost as any son, the child severed from the thread. But the Elder God within could give him nothing. Nothing beyond what he himself was preparing to do.
Could you have imagined, K'rul, how Icarium would take what you did? Take it into himself as would any child seeking a guiding hand? Where are you, K'rul? Do you sense his return? Do you know what he seeks? -- RG p.173-174

So yeah, no clue what that meant. The only things I can think of to which K'rul could have been "preparing to do" is either work the warrens through his own body -- which I'd have thought would have happened rather earlier than Icarium's wandering -- or taken Kallor's ashy continent into himself. I don't know if this has to do with Icarium's power per se, but figured it wouldn't hurt to toss in there.

[sappers to the breach]

i was under the impression that he was a weapon designed by the nameless ones. they have been shaping him for how long now? 93,000 years. so i would venture to say that his power is not a direct result of his parents( but i have no doubt that they added to it) but from investitures from the nameless ones. and can he call upon him amazing brand of whoop ass with out losing himself to the rage? i mean i know he has yet to go full throttle in the rage area, but every fight finds him with memory wiped, and a sore head where someone had to put him down. oh and whats up with that, he can level whole cities, slaughter thousands in the name of justice ( and an arrow in his friends throat ) but if mappo wants to stop him, he just bonks him on the head, and he turns off like the clapper. what gives?

[MTS]

Well, Mappo is a Trell, and thus incredibly strong, and that bone mace he uses on Icarium would pack a LOT of heat behind it, as it's fairly massive. So it's not hard to imagine him being knocked out from such a blow (esp. from behind); something that big swung with such force would probably cave a normal person's skull in, and reduce their brain to pulp.

Also, where did this 93,000 years come from? What event are you referring to? His attack upon the Azath?

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 24 April 2009 - 06:13 AM

[Nandaki]

I doubt Icarium is an Ascendent such those we have seen so far. He is consiedered as an unaligned card in the DEck of Dragons. But does it mean that once you are potrayed as a card in the DoD you become a ascendent? Wouldn't that make Trull one too??

He isn't a god for sure as I think it is implied that Anomander Rake isn't a god inspite of having followers, because he doesn't recognise them as such. So Icarium has no idea that he was being worshipped and doesn't consider himself as a god.

As for how he became so strong, I assumed that he was always this strong. Just that now he is crazy and has no control over his powers. His machines are invested as well, that is how they stand the test of time. So I think he can invest objects.

Also Mael, in that very same book shows some fear of Icarium. For a powerful Elder God to show fear is quite something. I personally think Icarium is aspected to time in the same way Rake is aspected to Darkness and ST to Shadow. He draws power from time itself had hence has no limits.

[sappers to the breach]

i was refering to i think it was HoC when we first met mappo and iccy and he was looking at one of his macines and was like " this cant be right, if it is then i built this 93,000 years ago" i know bad paraphrase.

[Aptorian]

There is some mention, I think it is Pusts, that suggests that Icarium is in fact not an ascendant. He certainly has the power of a hundred ascendants, but there is something about his broken mind and the chaos taint that stops Iccy from being able to grow, without growth there can't be change and this is probably why he doesn't ascend.

On the other hand you could also consider whether Iccy has inherited the power of a Jaghut Tyrant. Would you consider a Jaghut Tyrant an ascendant?

About the K'rull and Iccy connection. I don't think Iccy gained any special powers from K'rull. It was a passing on off knowledge and understanding. K'rull back then, and this must have been before the fall of the CG I'm guessing, was working on the fashioning of the warrens but it would still be thousands of years before he implemented them.

Maels comment foreshadows what Iccy does later in the book. K'rull uses his body to channel the warrens that are rooted in blood and earth. This is more or less the ritual Iccy invokes in the end of RG.

[Leadslinger]

Do you think what Krul gave Icarium was just the location of his father? That caused him problems in the end.

[Nandaki]

Yeah, I agree with what you say Apt. Though I think Icarium was trying to link his memories together?. never understood what exactly was the purpose of those machines. And I doubt Icarium knows himself.

As for the Pust comment, he says it when he is yelling at both Mappo and Icarium, saying that while they have lived long they haven't gained th wisdon/intelligence to become ascendents..

[dawnkiller]

Aptorian, on Apr 24 2009, 02:36 AM, said:

About the K'rull and Iccy connection. I don't think Iccy gained any special powers from K'rull. It was a passing on off knowledge and understanding. K'rull back then, and this must have been before the fall of the CG I'm guessing, was working on the fashioning of the warrens but it would still be thousands of years before he implemented them.

Maels comment foreshadows what Iccy does later in the book. K'rull uses his body to channel the warrens that are rooted in blood and earth. This is more or less the ritual Iccy invokes in the end of RG.

Cool, I'll keep an eye out for it -- for whatever reason I'm trying a simultaneous reread of MoI and RG, so progress for both is a little slow, and certain details have dropped from my head since the last go-through. (But, sadly, not nearly enough of the Letherii bits. Argh.)

I agree, I don't think Icarium is ascendant -- or wasn't as of RG, anyway. Different races have different powerlevels. Jaghut and FA seem insanely difficult to kill and can wreak vast damage, but that seems a consequence of their species. You can also make ascendant objects without being one yourself, like Munung (creator of the CG's deck in MoI) and Withal (forged Rhulad's sword). I'd say that it seems like Icarium has been half-way to Ascendancy for a long time due solely to his experiences, but he's been halted halfway through due to his memory problems.

Re: Icarium as agent of the Nameless Ones: I don't believe the NOs made him at all, they simply made use of him -- steering him to where they thought he should be through their respective agents. Mappo's club may very well have been created by the NOs to act as a special safeguard against him going off where he shouldn't, and I got the sense he'd been somewhat invested himself to afford him some immunity, so the fact Mappo could drop the guy so easily didn't really bug me.

[D'rek]

The K'rul-Iccy connection: If Iccy saw K'rul preparing to create the Paths/warrens/whatever, this makes quite a bit of sense. In MoI, K'rul gives Envy a druggy vision of the creation of the warrens which involves a glimpse of blood spurting from K'rul's body (can't remember if it specifically said wrists, but that's the impression anyway). So, Iccy sees this and then goes ahead and builds a crazy construct just outisde K'rul's temple. What does Iccy do to kickstart the machine at the end of RG? He slits his wrists. So maybe there is a connection, if Iccy built it based on what K'rul was doing. Somehow...