[Father of High House Reason]

W. T. F.???!!!

I'm as confused as a Mule of Darkness. But hear me out.

I'm a bit tired and I haven't thought this through properly, but here is my grand theory.

TMBOTF is a new genre of fantasy - I call it Anthropological Fantasy or perhaps Sociologial Fantasy.

It actually shouldn't be a new type of fantasy, but essentially the genre is stuck in a paradigm that needs to be broken.

TMBOTF is as a Warren as other fantasy is a Hold.

Or, as I would argue, TMBOTF is a Flow as other fantasy (not based on LOTR) is a Warren and LOTR and it's copy cats are a Hold.

WTF is a Flow. Forget the word. It's the concept that matters. It's my word for the next paradigm shift.

First there were Wanderings, then Holds, then Warrens etc. (I'm sure there are more in there we don't know about.)

Next there will be a Flow. Or THE Flow more likely.

Why THE Flow? Because it will try to be universal. But like Holds remaining in a world dominated by Warrens, they will both remain with The Flow.

Anyway - forget the word, hopefully I've got the concept clear.

So what's High House Reason? It's the dominant house in the flow. Although TBH houses probably wouldn't exist.

But anyway, if there were positions in it there would be Father (Icarium) and Philosopher (Karsa).

Double WTF.

Okay.

For me, the Malazan world is essentially about myths.

And like our world myths shape the world and the world shapes the myths. (Who in the world has the power and control to shape the myths is the next question.)

And like our world, myths compete, assimilate other myths, are distorted etc. Myths are kept alive by communication and communication affects myths.

Myths can also be affected by paradigm shifts, like the wandering, holds, warrens etc etc...

In the Malazan world SE gets to make these myths more real by manifesting themselves as entities. And these entities can then compete, personified.

Some myths are specific to one particular tribe, one to a series of peoples, or others are universal.

(I would think universal myths would have stronger personifed gods etc)

Different cultures can interpret a myth differently. Things can be forgotten. If the myth is strong enough it will outlast what people who have forgotten or misinterpretted that myth as being and can still shape those people. But if a myth is forget, or partially forget, it can be remade.

(Am I repeating myself? probably)

So as I was saying above the next paradigm shift I'm calling a flow just for arguements sake.

Icarium and Karsa are central to this "flow".

Icarium

Icarium is the myth/symbol of history. Wether he always was or has become that is moot. The fact that others beleive it creates a myth which blah blah blah...etc etc

(People like the Son of Darkness aren't actually the son of darkness, but because others think that the myth becomes real and they get personified as that role. Roles can change to of course... and BTW you can read into my theory what you like about priestly power versus mages - it would be easily done)

Anyway - Icarium represents or has come to represent history repeating itself. Icarium never learns because he never remembers, thus history ever repeats because it is not concious of itself.

So who are the Nameless ones and what are they doing?

They want him to forget because they don't want him to remember. To remember would be to usher in the new paradigm. He has become the symbol of time, therefore should he become concious of himself, the myth he has become will become concious of itself.

The NO's from my memory include gods, individuals, acendents and general clever people united for this one desire - protecting the system/paradigm they have.

Anyway - Icarium/history becoming concious would create The Flow and he would take the position in the House of Reason (if there were houses, which I doubt because it would try and become a universal mythology such as the western enlightenment...)

Karsa

Where does Karsa come into this?

He is a competing myth of time or reason or whatever or he will get another seat in the house of reason in the Flow.

I think SE will either have to have them fight and one win, fight and they come to an understanding, come to an understanding without a fight, or even become one. (The role of the CG may interfer with this, see below.)

Anyway - Karsa is chained by myths. These are chains on reason/reality. To break these chains (mythologys) he would create The Flow the new paradigm.

The gods in the rock, sha'ik or whatever her name is, these all blind him to reason. His is becoming the personification of reason in another way. He's impervious to sorcery because it is feed/powered by mythology or the power in mythology.

(Just a side point - Krul allowed a paradigm shift with his blood and warens etc... but it didn't destroy myths, it saved it in a new form for the new times. It was democratising in that it gives more people access to power/sorcery etc... )

Anyway - Karsa is challenging mythology which has bound him and his people and he realises other people.

He is therefore competiting for a simlar position as Icarium.

I see Karsa as possibly having the role of Philosopher in the House of Reason in the Flow.

The Crippled God

What role then is that of the crippled god. This is where in my theory SE is being really clever.

The Cripple God is a way of challenge the entire premise of the Malazan world. Remembering that my theory is that the Malazan world is a metaphor/analogy or whatever the word is of our own anthroplogical history. (The Flow and House of Reason etc would be Sociology.. although with all this interdisciplinary humanities stuff who can say??)

The Cripple God is a clever way of SE using his books as a desive to challenge our own paradigm. The Cripple GOd is someone outside of our mythology.

A cool idea.

FRAK i'm going mad.

Anyway someone else comintue this silly theory for me.

Thanks

[Father of High House Reason]

Sorry I'm really tired. Forget, forgot, forgotten etc. Any Sysop can go and spell check/edit me.

[iRFNA]

Did you forget to take your haldol again?

[HoosierDaddy]

Long title is loooooooooooooooooooooooong.


Interesting take. Karsa and Icarium aren't going to fight, though.

Also, what the hell is "The Flow?" You actually didn't explain it at all.

As a whole, you are completely overloading on the whole "Metaphor" thing, which means I disagree with your whole theory.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 13 April 2009 - 01:10 AM

[D'rek]

Inconceivable!

(really)

[masan's saddle]

Attempting a post modern critique of TMBotF using semiotics and reference to " myth/ mythologies " suggests you have read Roland Barthes ?

I would suggest you condense your theory as it jumps around a lot and be more concise, particularly in defining what you mean when you use the word myth.

Are you illustrating the Brechtian concept of the political demystification of signs as a structuralist mode of Marxist semiotics ?

Or are you using the term in a more historically literal sense ?

Or did you ideed forget to take your Haldol ?

Your description of TMBotF/Warrens with other fantasy/Holds was nice though.

[amphibian]

You know, I had a good, snarky reply all typed up and ready to go. But then I realized this is the crazy theory land.

Anything goes, even if it won't necessarily fly.

Welcome to the forum. Maybe next time, you can ease up on the drugs and make it more coherent to the reader.

[iRFNA]

After careful deliberation, I've decided that this is the only valid response to this theory.

[Sindriss]

It amused me though

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Ye Gods I'm so confused. The condensed version plox?

[iRFNA]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Apr 15 2009, 12:43 AM, said:

Ye Gods I'm so confused. The condensed version plox?

Short version:

PARADIGM SHIFT

[The Dark Wanderer]

Sometimes I can almost believe we're almost normal, sensible people with a common interest then something like this happens ...... again.

[The Swordbearer]

Its a Bumblebee theory it shouldn't be able to fly... yet there the bugger goes LOL

This post has been edited by The Swordbearer: 14 June 2009 - 07:56 AM

[Deragoth]

My cats breath smells like catfood.

[The Deragoth]

I'd say he touches on a few good points that are legitimate. While the theory is all over the place, the concept of myth and truth are certainly prevalent in Erikson's novels. These have always been a reason why we enjoy Erikson more than most other fantasy writers, but I don't think the paradigm shift really goes beyond that. Certainly we can use any number of analogies to compare Erikson's work to more conventional fantasy, but ultimately I think it just comes to better world building, likely stemming from his own archaeological and anthropological experience.

I know there are legions of writers who abhor the concept of world building as a central part of writing, but clearly Erikson has harnessed it quite convincingly. Ultimately, I would say he has added a sophistication bred of detail and depth to his fantasy, but it seems quite unlikely that he designed his characters and world to fit into a sociological or philosophical framework entirely separate from the world he created.

[Zendog13]

Excellent, I stay away from the forums for a while and return to be greeted with this. I now need a beer. Good to be back ehhehehe!

[Abyss]

Where can i find pictures that will horrify Apt?

- Abyss, ...AITTTTIS...

[K'azz D'Avore]

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 10 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

W. T. F.???!!!

I'm as confused as a Mule of Darkness. But hear me out.

I'm a bit tired and I haven't thought this through properly, but here is my grand theory.

TMBOTF is a new genre of fantasy - I call it Anthropological Fantasy or perhaps Sociologial Fantasy.

It actually shouldn't be a new type of fantasy, but essentially the genre is stuck in a paradigm that needs to be broken.

TMBOTF is as a Warren as other fantasy is a Hold.

Or, as I would argue, TMBOTF is a Flow as other fantasy (not based on LOTR) is a Warren and LOTR and it's copy cats are a Hold.

WTF is a Flow. Forget the word. It's the concept that matters. It's my word for the next paradigm shift.

First there were Wanderings, then Holds, then Warrens etc. (I'm sure there are more in there we don't know about.)

Next there will be a Flow. Or THE Flow more likely.

Why THE Flow? Because it will try to be universal. But like Holds remaining in a world dominated by Warrens, they will both remain with The Flow.

Anyway - forget the word, hopefully I've got the concept clear.

So what's High House Reason? It's the dominant house in the flow. Although TBH houses probably wouldn't exist.

But anyway, if there were positions in it there would be Father (Icarium) and Philosopher (Karsa).

Double WTF.

Okay.

For me, the Malazan world is essentially about myths.

And like our world myths shape the world and the world shapes the myths. (Who in the world has the power and control to shape the myths is the next question.)

And like our world, myths compete, assimilate other myths, are distorted etc. Myths are kept alive by communication and communication affects myths.

Myths can also be affected by paradigm shifts, like the wandering, holds, warrens etc etc...

In the Malazan world SE gets to make these myths more real by manifesting themselves as entities. And these entities can then compete, personified.

Some myths are specific to one particular tribe, one to a series of peoples, or others are universal.

(I would think universal myths would have stronger personifed gods etc)

Different cultures can interpret a myth differently. Things can be forgotten. If the myth is strong enough it will outlast what people who have forgotten or misinterpretted that myth as being and can still shape those people. But if a myth is forget, or partially forget, it can be remade.

(Am I repeating myself? probably)

So as I was saying above the next paradigm shift I'm calling a flow just for arguements sake.

Icarium and Karsa are central to this "flow".

Icarium

Icarium is the myth/symbol of history. Wether he always was or has become that is moot. The fact that others beleive it creates a myth which blah blah blah...etc etc

(People like the Son of Darkness aren't actually the son of darkness, but because others think that the myth becomes real and they get personified as that role. Roles can change to of course... and BTW you can read into my theory what you like about priestly power versus mages - it would be easily done)

Anyway - Icarium represents or has come to represent history repeating itself. Icarium never learns because he never remembers, thus history ever repeats because it is not concious of itself.

So who are the Nameless ones and what are they doing?

They want him to forget because they don't want him to remember. To remember would be to usher in the new paradigm. He has become the symbol of time, therefore should he become concious of himself, the myth he has become will become concious of itself.

The NO's from my memory include gods, individuals, acendents and general clever people united for this one desire - protecting the system/paradigm they have.

Anyway - Icarium/history becoming concious would create The Flow and he would take the position in the House of Reason (if there were houses, which I doubt because it would try and become a universal mythology such as the western enlightenment...)

Karsa

Where does Karsa come into this?

He is a competing myth of time or reason or whatever or he will get another seat in the house of reason in the Flow.

I think SE will either have to have them fight and one win, fight and they come to an understanding, come to an understanding without a fight, or even become one. (The role of the CG may interfer with this, see below.)

Anyway - Karsa is chained by myths. These are chains on reason/reality. To break these chains (mythologys) he would create The Flow the new paradigm.

The gods in the rock, sha'ik or whatever her name is, these all blind him to reason. His is becoming the personification of reason in another way. He's impervious to sorcery because it is feed/powered by mythology or the power in mythology.

(Just a side point - Krul allowed a paradigm shift with his blood and warens etc... but it didn't destroy myths, it saved it in a new form for the new times. It was democratising in that it gives more people access to power/sorcery etc... )

Anyway - Karsa is challenging mythology which has bound him and his people and he realises other people.

He is therefore competiting for a simlar position as Icarium.

I see Karsa as possibly having the role of Philosopher in the House of Reason in the Flow.

The Crippled God

What role then is that of the crippled god. This is where in my theory SE is being really clever.

The Cripple God is a way of challenge the entire premise of the Malazan world. Remembering that my theory is that the Malazan world is a metaphor/analogy or whatever the word is of our own anthroplogical history. (The Flow and House of Reason etc would be Sociology.. although with all this interdisciplinary humanities stuff who can say??)

The Cripple God is a clever way of SE using his books as a desive to challenge our own paradigm. The Cripple GOd is someone outside of our mythology.

A cool idea.

FRAK i'm going mad.

Anyway someone else comintue this silly theory for me.

Thanks

Your ideas aren't very clear but I can see where you're going. I must say it would be fantastic if Eriksson explored this further....

[poeg]

Don't see it as that at all. Karsa is the savage graced with intelligence and untainted by civilization and thus a unique force of will others are drawn to and will continue to be drawn to. Icarium is a force of nature like a hurricane or tornado unaware of the devastation left behind in his wake and truly alone in his journey regardless of company. Two entirely different things. The only commonality here is both affect change.

[HiddenOne]

Taking LSD while reading Erikson after some post-secondary education, eh? I think the pleasure of anything may be lost if over-analyzed (without regard to accuracy). So, Professor X, go read some Philip K Dick and get back to me.