[stone monkey]

If you actually read my post rather than zooming off to burn the strawman you might have noticed that I was not blaming you personally or anyone currently alive for any of this, merely pointing out that being born white benefits you in a bunch of ways; having white parents means you are less likely to be born into poverty, having white skin means that you are less likely to be a victim of crime, having white skin in the US means that you are less likely to be executed if convicted of murder... There's a whole load of them.

This I suspect is primarily due to the relative poverty of non-white communities within the western nations, a holdover from when non-whites were considered second class citizens and were systematically and deliberately disadvantaged, a situation which btw is not only within living memory, but within my own living memory (and I'm only in my 30s... just). And today there's still that legacy of poverty, with all the attendant problems that causes.

And if you're a white male, you're still a member of the demographic that rules the world. You can point to Obama and say "Well there's a black guy in charge", and you'd be right and it's a huge deal. But the people who, proportionately, still make most of the major decisions in the western democracies and still wield the financial and political power are white males. That has changed very little and probably won't change for a very long time. This makes my own sympathies for the particular complaints of some white males limited - they feel like they're no longer Lords of All They Survey and no longer have that God-given right to ride roughshod over everyone else...and that makes them resentful. That's not a surprise, no one likes to see total power slipping out of their hands.

I don't know what the solution is; there may not be a solution at all. And as I said, I'm really not sure that affirmative action is the way to go about it - it only breeds obvious resentment in the majority white community towards those they see benefitting and the one thing no one needs is more of that... The one thing I can say for sure is that things are better than they were, but that doesn't mean everything's great.

Hell, I'm not even a woman. If I was female I'd feel really resentful about the way the world is run!

[Assail]

stone monkey, on Apr 2 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

If you actually read my post rather than zooming off to burn the strawman you might have noticed that I was not blaming you personally or anyone currently alive for any of this, merely pointing out that being born white benefits you in a bunch of ways; having white parents means you are less likely to be born into poverty, having white skin means that you are less likely to be a victim of crime, having white skin in the US means that you are less likely to be executed if convicted of murder... There's a whole load of them.

This I suspect is primarily due to the relative poverty of non-white communities within the western nations, a holdover from when non-whites were considered second class citizens and were systematically and deliberately disadvantaged, a situation which btw is not only within living memory, but within my own living memory (and I'm only in my 30s... just). And today there's still that legacy of poverty, with all the attendant problems that causes.

And if you're a white male, you're still a member of the demographic that rules the world. You can point to Obama and say "Well there's a black guy in charge", and you'd be right and it's a huge deal. But the people who, proportionately, still make most of the major decisions in the western democracies and still wield the financial and political power are white males. That has changed very little and probably won't change for a very long time. This makes my own sympathies for the particular complaints of some white males limited - they feel like they're no longer Lords of All They Survey and no longer have that God-given right to ride roughshod over everyone else...and that makes them resentful. That's not a surprise, no one likes to see total power slipping out of their hands.

I don't know what the solution is; there may not be a solution at all. And as I said, I'm really not sure that affirmative action is the way to go about it - it only breeds obvious resentment in the majority white community towards those they see benefitting and the one thing no one needs is more of that... The one thing I can say for sure is that things are better than they were, but that doesn't mean everything's great.

Hell, I'm not even a woman. If I was female I'd feel really resentful about the way the world is run!

I never stated that you were blaming us personally, or that you were implying that. All of those aspects are vast generalizations. Not to mention that even if they were 100% true, then it is not by the colour of our skin that has put us into a situation where we are not born into poverty. It's through hard work. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to sit there and tell me that "You're white so you've got a less chance of being put on death row, or born into poverty, or become a victim of crime". That doesn't make sense. We have the exact same chance as any other individual, because it's not based on the colour of our skin, but the mettle of our character.

I strongly, strongly, disagree with the fact that "Because they were degraded and forced into impoverished conditions 300 years ago, they now are poor and impoverished". No, over the past century there have been vast improvements for civil rights and if non-whites wish to gain the same things in life that apparantly 'every white man does' then they have that ability, should they so exercise it. If they want something, there is nothing stopping them from getting it. Hell, they have a better chance than the white man currently, a prime example being the "ethnic minority hiring" stuff that has gone on.

How did this come into politics? I mean come on, of course there's haters out there, but there is no way enough of them to stop a black, a mexican or an asian man from gaining power within our society. If these non-white groups of people really wanted to control the financial, or political power, then they would make a bid for it, and they could legitimately take. Because, hey, it's not about skin colour anymore. Obama being a prime example. However, a lot of his votes were based on skin colour, where is the justice in that? This is not the topic for the injustices behind the Obama election though, so we'll not go there.

Nothing will ever be great, there's always going to be complaints, a lot of them being completely unfounded. That's how the world is though.

[Optimus Prime]

My first thoughts are that any attempt to justify racism is stupid.

It's like...if you start a sentence w/ "I'm not a racist..but...." sorry...you're a racist.

Is counter-racism a problem in society? Hell yes. I grew up in the Southeastern US, where people still wear their fucking white cloaks and it's risky to date other races. However, my mother teaches in a school that is 99% Black school and has been called such illustrious nicknames as "White Donkey" and "White Bitch".

But TT is right, minorities have it way worse in the US and there is still a lot of work to be done to level the playing field. They still make less, lose their jobs more often, etc...etc.

Racism affects all cultures but white people still have most of the power and thus still can't understand what it's like to be a person of color.

This post has been edited by Optimus Prime: 02 April 2009 - 07:39 PM

[Cold Iron]

Holy shit the xander is back!

Anyway, I think sm is right in that most white people are benefiting off residual wealth created by exploitation. What this says to me is that our society is structured largely in such a way as to make it very fucking hard to change your position in life (easier perhaps than in the past but still very fucking hard). If you are born poor, you will likely die poor. I believe strongly that all education should be free and equal. As soon as you can pay more money for a better education you are creating a world where the rich stay rich through generations. This is simply unfair.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 02 April 2009 - 10:16 PM

[Optimus Prime]

Howdy there CI

I agree. People like to say that we've come a long way as a civilization...but we are still essentially a caste system. You can improve your life but it's like I told this mega conservative chick the other night at a bar (who was smoking hot by the way).

We got into a discussion about taxes and how I thought people who make more should pay a bit more in taxes. She started going on about how that's not fair and people shouldn't be punished for being more successful because EVERYONE has the opportunity to make 250K plus a year. I laughed in her face and asked her who was going to pay janitors 250K? Bus Drivers? Someone has to do the jobs the rest of us consider ourselves too good for. This isn't a utopia. My friend came over in the middle of the argument and proceeded to call her ignorant and she started to cry.

All in all, a successful night out.

[Cougar]

Fucking hell it's Xander.

I think that those people arguing that being white is not a priveledged position are just fooling themselves I supose you could argue that being English is more priveledged than Bulgarian or something but it's all relative. Poland and Ireland both benfited from and continue to benefit from the fruits of colonialism and this is an inarguable fact. Yes they may never have had slave trade but sucha simplistic approach to this does neither of you any real credit.

Similary we are not all guilty just because we hold the best cards, I feel no guilt about the past, it wasn't my fault, there was nothing I could do, similary there is little we can do to redress the balance we have fucked up, but what we can do is stop whining when someone wants to compete with us on even ground.

As SM and CI say it's very interesting how many of these threads have come up recently, in hard times it does become popular to blame the other; Jews in Germany being the starkest example I would say.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 02 April 2009 - 10:40 PM

[Cold Iron]

Optimus Prime, on Apr 3 2009, 09:21 AM, said:

You can improve your life but it's like I told this mega conservative chick the other night at a bar (who was smoking hot by the way).
...
My friend came over in the middle of the argument and proceeded to call her ignorant and she started to cry.

All in all, a successful night out.

God hates figs.

[Optimus Prime]

I'm white but I have a lot of Eskimo Pride....

[Mentalist]

meh
At the risk of sounding bigoted, I really don't see how the system like that benefits me.
I'm a a first-generation immigrant. As such, I have no prior connections to the system that's been in place for X hundred of years in the West that's supposedly been extablished to benefit me.
Like Macros I don't feel guilty over what happened some X hundred years ago--because I know perfectly well that my own family were serfs at the time.
Positive discrimination puts me in direct disadvantage, because no one's going to ask for my birth certificate when making a choice between hiring me and a visible minority. The fact that by virtue of being a n imigrant without connections I start on the same level of exclusion as the minorities who've been excluded from it by design for X hunderds of years is further reinforced by the fact that the government's looking out for them, but not for me.

EDIT: Also, cougar, i'm really unsure what you mean by saying that Eastern Europe benefitted from colonialism. could you explain, please?

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 02 April 2009 - 11:37 PM

[Cold Iron]

Optimus Prime, on Apr 3 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

I'm white but I have a lot of Eskimo Pride....

He must appreciate it

[Aptorian]

Nice minefield of a thread going on here. I'm surprised we've gone 1½ pages with people still being somewhat civil

One of my uncles once asked me what I though about "immigrants". We were having a discussion about racial crime I believe. I took my time answering him, thinking about what my opinion actually is. My answer was that no, I don't have anything against Immigrants, I do however have a dislike of some young immigrant males who behave and dress in a certain manner. I'm weary of their presence when ever I get near them. But I don't feel a need to apologize for this generalization. It's natural both rational and irrational fear based on prejudice and self preservation, not really something I control, it's a by product of watching the news and being suspicious of your fellow man.

You see, I am Xenophobe. Not a racist. My hatreds and fears revolve around groups of people and my perception of them, but don't involve race. I'm not really one who believes in races, I do how ever make distinctions between cultures. There are cultures I strongly dislike, I don't like Emos, ABBA listeners, Hippies and plenty of other groups of people. It just so happens to be that I also don't like black skinned people dressed like a "gangster" being loud and acting aggressive. But I lump these people into the same category as muscular skinheads and smelly drug addicts. I also have problems with radical muslims, their unwillingness to intergrate themselves in danish culture, and some even voicing an intent to subvert the western ways, it makes me angry, but that's not a race issue either, it's their culture and indoctrination. Just like I've been indoctrinated to think christianity and democracy is the right thing. I lump those people into the same catagory as all religious nuts.

I think the problem lies in people claimming they aren't racists or biggots. Everyone is a racist in one way or another if you're taking the words meaning litterally. Admit you have those fears, those perceptions of certain groups of people and learn to overcome them or work around them. Don't just ignore them or claim to not be a biggot. That's just bullshit, everyone has those secret thoughts, those irrational opinions. It's acting on them or not, which makes the difference.

[Mentalist]

I think I mentioned the xenophobia thing in one of the other threads that revolved around this issue. I find it natural that we like people that are similar to those to whom we are used and dislike people that are different. I'm not equating "good" and "proper" with "natural" however.
If our ideal is to create a mutually tolerant society, these natural tendencies must be overcome through education.
I think the socio economic status has a lot to play in social inequalities and I disagree that all of them can be written off as "race"-caused.

[Cold Iron]

I have a chinese friend that reminds me a lot of my father in his manerisms and way of speaking. My father is Austrian. They are both agressive and direct in conversation. I, unsurprisingly, am also somewhat like my father in this regard. This means I get along great with my chinese friend, but I can see why most of the other white people who know him don't find it as easy.

My point is that you don't learn to get along with someone who's different, through education or otherwise. You just get along with people who you have common ground with. This will happen more often with people your own race but doesn't necessarily follow any strict rules.

[Mentalist]

of course, i'm not denying that.
when I say "different", I didn't mean simply skin colour--going back to Apt's example, I'm sure he'd hate a white and black emo equally.

[stone monkey]

The integration issue is a whole other can of worms.

From the perspective of the majority culture I see it as an "If they want to live in our country they have to follow our ways" attitude. Majority cultures often see the other as a "threat" to their way of life or a dilution of their culture with unwanted customs. And they also seem hostile to the idea that people often want to hold on to certain familiar things from the place in which they grew up; seeing it as a rejection of their own culture (of which they may be very proud). Sometimes it's seen as simple stubborness on the part of the newcomer.

From the immigrant perspective it's more an "I'm obeying their laws, I'm paying my taxes; what more do they want from me? My soul?" issue. It can seem that to fully integrate into the majority culture it's required for them to reject everything from their home culture (of which they may be very proud) as worthless or inferior. And often where someone comes from can become very important to them when they're not there any more. Especially when they're in a strange country surrounded by people who don't (and sometimes make no effort to) understand them.

A lot of this, from both sides, has to do with that typical human failing that makes people regard things that are different to those they are familiar with as bad. Ideas of national identity and cultural superiority also come into play, I feel.

[Cold Iron]

To be fair there are very few people who think everything different is bad. Body language counts for a lot, people know when you're being hostile toward them, and the hostility can come from both sides and be for many reasons.

I think this is a classic case of crying wolf. We can't rely on governing bodies to be responsible for every moment of our existence, in many situations, you have to look after yourself. The legal system is a big enough giant quivering vagina (sic) as it is, at some point you just can't expect your big daddy with the big phallus to look after you (pic relevant). The "services industry" which employs every "no value added" lawyer, politician, business analyst bureaucrat is the reason we don't have a healthy manufacturing industry to fall back on. We don't even have a valid agricultural industry anymore because have to poor so much money into it just to keep it competitive. (wait, what thread am i in?)

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 03 April 2009 - 02:39 AM

[dktorode]

Abyss, on Apr 2 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

dktorode, on Apr 2 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

Whats gets me is Richards was hauled to court for racist jokes in his show, but when a black comedians uses race in their shows its perfectly ok.

Go to YouTube. Watch the performance Richards got slammed for.

He wasn't making jokes. He was telling two black hecklers that 'back in the day, we would have strung you guys up'. He then realizes he's screwed up and tries to turn it into some kind of stream-of-consciousness social statement.

Everything he has done since then has been a sad attempt to reclaim some thin shred of his thoroughly tanked post-Seinfeld career.

Whether Richards has a point or not, he has no credibility to be the one trying to make it.

- Abyss, uncomfortably on the fence on the hiring-policy thing.

I have seen MUCH worse things than what Richards did done by black comedians ...MUCH worse.
Over here i have seen a black comedian say things that would curl your toe nails...and what do people do?...laugh...but let a white man say anything similar and all hell will break loose.

[dktorode]

Cougar, on Apr 2 2009, 05:39 PM, said:

This is one of the most often touted criticisms of positive discrimination in SA that I have heard. I'm uncertain of the voracity of the statement but I've heard it said that it has created a class of black people who are unconcerened about 'black issues' and essentially behave like white people historically have.

This is so true

[Aptorian]

The difference lies in most comedians are putting on an act, the Kramer guy was not acting he was pissed off and unfortunantly let a remark slip he shouldn't.

Personally I think people make too much out of it, but it's America. You can't do anything bad as an American celebrity and not get hung out to dry... for ever... by the media. And there's nothing more sensitive than African Americans when you play the race card.

[dktorode]

Cougar, on Apr 2 2009, 05:39 PM, said:

This is one of the most often touted criticisms of positive discrimination in SA that I have heard. I'm uncertain of the voracity of the statement but I've heard it said that it has created a class of black people who are unconcerened about 'black issues' and essentially behave like white people historically have.

This is so true