[Zanth13]

or maybe it is Dunsparrow and she was taught by whiskyjack

dun dun dun

I felt it was apsalar to begin with but now im not sure, I dont see her losing, but then again a different author could have different visions of a character.

[dawnkiller]

Puck, on Apr 5 2009, 07:34 PM, said:

You're probably right with Havva. It's just that I think that the person Topper dealt with should be somebody we encounter somewhere else in the book, so not Apsalar or anyone ominous we've never heard of before. If Topper recognizes the person, we should be able to do so, too. Otherwise I'd find it annoying. But that#s just me, and I'm on a reread now, so maybe I change my opinion.

I didn't think Topper recognized her -- just her style. Umm . . . right, here's his impression of her from p.201: "lithe and quick . . . one of them yet not. Different by her style. Much more colorful, individual. Similar, yet not regimented in her moves." (The only thing he could see under her scarf and veil were dark eyes.) He amended his assessment of "woman" to "girl" after she commented her father taught her, which is why I thought maybe she was the offspring of a Talon rather than a Claw. For one, he let her live where he killed the Claws -- or at least those not sanctioned to use the Warren. If she were a Talon, there may have been some lingering guilt about wiping them out, hence allowing her to live as a sort of apology -- especially if she weren't specifically on his list of targets.

I agree with the annoyance at not knowing her identity, but I'm used to that in this series. I mean, when did we see those completely random drowned/crushed bodies, MOI or HoC? You know, the ones that weren't explained until Midnight Tides . . .

Quote

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.

Okay, good to know I wasn't hallucinating that. I originally thought it might be Draconus because the sound of the wagon was heard by Nait, but if this book comes before TTH, so that doesn't work. Damn Andii.

[Puck]

dawnkiller, on Apr 6 2009, 04:00 AM, said:

Quote

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.

Okay, good to know I wasn't hallucinating that. I originally thought it might be Draconus because the sound of the wagon was heard by Nait, but if this book comes before TTH, so that doesn't work. Damn Andii.

Yeah. As I said, my original thought was Nimander, but when RotCG comes before TtH, that's not working. On the other hand, should the endings of both happen more or less simultaneously, that would fir perfectly. But that's not working, RotCG happens before the beginn of TtH. And I don't see Draconus as an Andii..

[tiam]

Puck, on Apr 6 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

You're probably right with Havva. It's just that I think that the person Topper dealt with should be somebody we encounter somewhere else in the book, so not Apsalar or anyone ominous we've never heard of before. If Topper recognizes the person, we should be able to do so, too. Otherwise I'd find it annoying. But that#s just me, and I'm on a reread now, so maybe I change my opinion.

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.

Return is a frustrating book. Its likely Toppers illegitimate child whos half Imass half FA

[Urizen]

Puck, on Apr 6 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

dawnkiller, on Apr 6 2009, 04:00 AM, said:

Quote

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.

Okay, good to know I wasn't hallucinating that. I originally thought it might be Draconus because the sound of the wagon was heard by Nait, but if this book comes before TTH, so that doesn't work. Damn Andii.

Yeah. As I said, my original thought was Nimander, but when RotCG comes before TtH, that's not working. On the other hand, should the endings of both happen more or less simultaneously, that would fir perfectly. But that's not working, RotCG happens before the beginn of TtH. And I don't see Draconus as an Andii..

Nimander is out since he don't have black hair but rather silvery ala Rake. I seem to remember it being described as "The color of starllight" in either RG or TTH.

[sqeekypotato]

Not to threadjack but the question I got out of this part of the book is who is Topper? He says at some point (to lazy to find the exact quote), after someone asks who he is, that he as been many people, and the name that least fit him was his last. It makes me think that there is a much bigger history behind Topper than we are aware of.

P.S. I'm aware who Topper is in relation to the Claw, what I'm getting it is that he is probably a person with a large history, and his time with the Claw is the least of it.

This post has been edited by sqeekypotato: 07 April 2009 - 08:16 PM

[Wampyry]

Crazy theory or as my crowd would say "throw a little shit in the game"

What if it were Coil, Mallik's lieutenant ,who fought topper. Her dead body wound up in the mist of KG that Heuk created on the east side of the battlefield. Along came Havva and said, hmm. I can use this body. She impersonates Coil until Possum stops her. Explains a coupla of questions. Maybe not

[blackzoid]

Urizen, on Apr 6 2009, 10:06 PM, said:

Puck, on Apr 6 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

dawnkiller, on Apr 6 2009, 04:00 AM, said:

Quote

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.

Okay, good to know I wasn't hallucinating that. I originally thought it might be Draconus because the sound of the wagon was heard by Nait, but if this book comes before TTH, so that doesn't work. Damn Andii.

Yeah. As I said, my original thought was Nimander, but when RotCG comes before TtH, that's not working. On the other hand, should the endings of both happen more or less simultaneously, that would fir perfectly. But that's not working, RotCG happens before the beginn of TtH. And I don't see Draconus as an Andii..

Nimander is out since he don't have black hair but rather silvery ala Rake. I seem to remember it being described as "The color of starllight" in either RG or TTH.

I shall just copy and paste my argument directly from:

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...=12965&st=0

I am assuming that the Andii representation Heuk meets is indeed Draconus because Heuk mentions the King of Night and Draconus in the prologue was the Suzerain of Night(Dark).
Mael another Elder God changes his form from the Midnight Tides prologue to Bugg.
Why can't Draconus?






"Ok, after doing a re-reread of Return I now think that the central timeline issue between the books , Draconus been relesed from Dragnipur before TtH is not true.
My evidence for:
1: Nait first meets Heuk on the hill when he starts to perform his ritual.
p 595, from Naits point of view
"But it was not a true silence. Something filled it. He strained to listen: the faintest rumbling and rattle of chain? Deep reverberations such as wheels groaning in the dark? "

Nait is hearing the sounds of what is inside Dragnipur! This is (presumably) not what Dragnipur will be like after its destroyed by Brood's hammer. So I think Dragnipur is intact at this moment in time. And Draconus is still inside it.

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return."

[End of Disc One]

I'm having a hard time reading this thread with the new forum, and all the quotes and stuff. Anyway, someone said it couldn't be Apsalar because she said "my father taught me." I think this is a good clue as to why it IS Apsalar. Cotillion referred to her as his daughter; why can't she refer to him as her father?

All clues point to it being Apsalar IMO, and I think Topper just caught her off guard. It wouldn't be the first time we've WTF'ed over a confrontation like this (Quick Ben vs. the sisters, Karsa vs. the Deragoth, etc.)

[MTS]

You make a good point. Topper is on a par with Cowl, after all. I still don't think it's her, though. Just doesn't feel right. If she was using warrens, I think she would go by Shadow, like she does in BH, not the IW.

[geNESis]

My first impression was it was Apsalar. It kinda reminded me of when she met Urko in TBH, when Urko says to her "I never knew he was such a sensitive soul. Are you his daughter? Something . . . in the way you stand"

[maro]

One of the Children from Shadow? Time dilates in Warrens so they could be older now and trained.

When it talks about "Should have come himself", does it refer to Cotillion training them?

[Shadow_Dancer]

If it was a child of a shadow then it might refer to kalam as the 'father' who trained them. Panek calls Cotillion Uncle in BH: the throne face off. Obv Kalam's squeeze is the 'mother' (+ the one eyed demon - dysfunctional family but who's judging :/ ) and kalam was supposed to raise them with her, which he did, for a while, before jumping ship and becoming a deadbeat dad.
Not convinved it actually is a CoS though.
Also not convinced it's Apsalar: things like 'they always send the best' instantly make me think of Apsalar, as does the shadows coming in when she tries to leave, but the characterisation in that case is really jarring. I don't think she'd call Cot her father (remember the slightly suspect face-touch moment? ... in which case ICK) and she just seems inappropriately chirpy and upbeat for our favourite tortured killer girl. She just starts chatting away even in the middle of fighting. And then additionally there's her final lines when she says 'You! But we thought you .. you were no ..'. Firsty, if it was Apsalar, surly she woudl've recognised Topper from Cot's memories, as she did with Crust and several others. Whereas this girl only seems to realise who she's fighting from his use of KG. And finally, the use of 'we thought' just seems really odd from apsalar; I'm not sure that she would allign herself with shadow like that. I think it would rather be 'they' thought or 'he' referringto Cot or ST.
Unfortunately i have literally no actual evidence and my hope it's not aps is based on the characterisation - but of curse it being a new author he might have just written her differently. rubbish.

[NikitaDarkstar]

It's beena w hile since I read the books now, but I seem to remember a part where Apsalar goes to look up some guy in a tower, who pretty much accuses her of being Dancers kid and is pretty upset by the idea, and she completly denies it and gives some sort of explination to what happened? (also where those two dragons posses the little reptilian skeletons?) So she clearly doesn't seem to think of Cotillion as a father figure?

I'm personally of the opinion that it was either Coil, or just someone random who was put there to give us a clue about who he was. Besides the "his style" comment could really refer to quite a few other people than Dancer/Cotillion, and shadow seems to be a fairly popular warren among claw and assassins. (along with Mockra.)

Only problem I have with the Coil theory is that why would he want to spare a sworn enemy of the empire? But could have been Kiska sticking her nose where it didn't belong ofcourse.. she is good at that. (And Tay does tell her to stay out of that stuff.. and she says she's only observing...)

Ehh ok.. so I don't really know either, I just never really reflected much over who the woman was. Hell, just to toss a totally random idea out there, maybe it was Toppers own kid? And it just them both a little while to actually realise? (Atleast we do know he's been accused of sleeping around abit... and things like that do have consequenses after a while )

[Mcflury]

End of Disc One, on 11 September 2009 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm having a hard time reading this thread with the new forum, and all the quotes and stuff. Anyway, someone said it couldn't be Apsalar because she said "my father taught me." I think this is a good clue as to why it IS Apsalar. Cotillion referred to her as his daughter; why can't she refer to him as her father?

All clues point to it being Apsalar IMO, and I think Topper just caught her off guard. It wouldn't be the first time we've WTF'ed over a confrontation like this (Quick Ben vs. the sisters, Karsa vs. the Deragoth, etc.)

I don't think it is Apsalar at all because of some simple hunches:
1) Apsalar still doesn't really like Cot I bet, she surely wouldn't refer to him as her daddy
2) The WTF-argument you give would be correct, except for the fact that every time SE gave us a WTF confrontation we actually exactly knew who was in that confrontation. Now we just had a person that we didn't really know at that time (only found out later it was Topper) and some girl, who has a skilled daddy, but of who we know nothing more. So at the time the confrontation happened in the book we had no way of judging whether it was a WTF confrontation or not.
3) Apsalar seems to be a too big character to just let her get killed without ever even giving a solid confirmation that it was her.

Personally I have no clue as to who the girl was, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen her before in the books directly. We might have seen her daddy, or heard of him, in the books, but of that I'm not too sure either.

[worry]

I agree. I don't think we're meant to know who she is as I think it's setup for clarification in a future book.

[ShadowRaven]

I just had a new thought about this, although this is once again pure speculation. What about Urko's daughter? It was never said that he had one, but he could have easily hid the fact. He has certainly seemed to favor hand-to-hand combat the most out of all the characters in the books, and he would probably know the claw's style from his history with Dancer, Surly, etc. (probably sparred with them a few times as well). If Urko had a daughter, she would certainly know of Topper as well, and Urko could have trained her to have a style similar to Dancer/Surly. It would make even more sense considering the fact that ICE has been focusing on the old guard, and didn't Urko slip away at the end, which could mean we will see him again.

[LordofTheFallen]

It wouldn't be Kiska, because she never dies. towards the end it states how she is broken by tayschrenns death, so she was never killed.

[havenophear]

From the AMA with ICE:

Jordanes: Just who was the girl Ragman/Topper fought in the Imperial Warren? Was it Apsalar or someone else? Lots of speculation on this but no definitive answer I'm aware of.

Ian C: Ah, yes. She represents another one of these off-stage potentialities that Steve and I hint at to suggest all the “other stuff” going on off-stage all about the world. She is thus a possibility, a potential that he or I might return to (and thus answer these questions).

[Mekeritrig]

blackzoid, on 22 May 2009 - 09:56 AM, said:

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return."

Yeah, my impression was that it was Draconus semi-manifesting from inside Dragnipur by means of Heuk's ritual. It's been a while since I read RotCG, but I seem to recall that Heuk is channeling Night, not Darkness. This is supported -- in my mind, at least -- by his use of blood ritual, which is tied to Elder Gods. Draconus has his own aspect, not dependent upon Mother Dark, whose warren is racial.