[Urkle Crust]

I spent a little time to see if this had already been answered to no avail. If this is a repeat question, I apologize.

I was wondering who the female Claw-type was who Topper blasted with Kurald Galain and then sunk into darkness. He obviously recognized her and regreted that he probably killed her. I could not figure out who that was.

Also, what were the pyramid things they both observed? Thanks in advance.

[Aptorian]

This has been a point of much debate among members a while back.

Some believe that it is Apsalar, some believe it was somebody else. Characters like Dassems daughter, have been brought up but we really have no idea, just guesses.

Personally I refuse to believe its Apsalar. I think she'd have shish-kebab'd Topper, no matter how powerfull he seemed.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think it was probably a claw that he knew who had been turned by mallick rel.

the pyramids were inverted i think... slaughter pits? i dunno, ask kallor

[Urkle Crust]

I am just glad to know that it is an open question. I was afraid that I was just an idiot.

[Aptorian]

Sinisdar Toste, on Mar 31 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

i think it was probably a claw that he knew who had been turned by mallick rel.

the pyramids were inverted i think... slaughter pits? i dunno, ask kallor

If they were inverted they may have been gates like the one Perl and Lostara used...

[Slow Ben]

I might have my Topper victims mixed up, but i thought he just wrote that to show that he is someone that a claw would recognize. Sort of foreshadowing or hinting so we could figure out who he was.

This post has been edited by Slow Ben: 31 March 2009 - 07:04 PM

[Urizen]

Urkle Crust, on Mar 31 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

I spent a little time to see if this had already been answered to no avail. If this is a repeat question, I apologize.

I was wondering who the female Claw-type was who Topper blasted with Kurald Galain and then sunk into darkness. He obviously recognized her and regreted that he probably killed her. I could not figure out who that was.

Also, what were the pyramid things they both observed? Thanks in advance.

I thought that the pyramid things were KCCM Skykeeps.

[Jumpy]

Urkle Crust, on Mar 31 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

I spent a little time to see if this had already been answered to no avail. If this is a repeat question, I apologize.

I was wondering who the female Claw-type was who Topper blasted with Kurald Galain and then sunk into darkness. He obviously recognized her and regreted that he probably killed her. I could not figure out who that was.

Also, what were the pyramid things they both observed? Thanks in advance.

Kiska, I thought. She'd probably have met him at some time during the past 10-15 years, since the Emperor and Dancer ascended and she joined with Tay. Pretty sure he'd have met up with the Clawmaster, and we know Hattar and Kiska are never far behind Tay. I thought, with these things in mind, it would make sense for her to be Kiska.

Never crossed my mind that it could be Apsalar. I doubt Topper could touch her. She has better skills than Topper's patron God. And Topper only took over after Surly. Who couldn't kill Dancer. Who is now a God. See where I'm going? Given, Apsalar is wary of Kalam Mekhar, but then again Topper is too. Baha.

[Slow Ben]

She's with Tay at the end of the book though isnt she? Trying to watch his back while he's battling whats his name.

[dawnkiller]

I agree Apsalar is unlikely, partly due to demeanor, but primarily because of the line "My father taught me" in response to Topper's recognition of her style (it's p.202 in my copy). It could be Kiska, but since it's been a while since NoK I'm not sure. I got the impression Kiska was, if not orphaned, than at least common stock . . ?

I was wondering if she was a heretofor unreferenced child of a Talon, like Baudin was -- they were Dancer's own cadre, which would explain the emphasis on "his" style. They do seem to pass down their skills.

[tiam]

dawnkiller, on Apr 4 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

I agree Apsalar is unlikely, partly due to demeanor, but primarily because of the line "My father taught me" in response to Topper's recognition of her style (it's p.202 in my copy). It could be Kiska, but since it's been a while since NoK I'm not sure. I got the impression Kiska was, if not orphaned, than at least common stock . . ?

I was wondering if she was a heretofor unreferenced child of a Talon, like Baudin was -- they were Dancer's own cadre, which would explain the emphasis on "his" style. They do seem to pass down their skills.

Talon was my first thought. But then why would she be in the claw. The talon were a brotherhood wiped out by the claw so they are all dead which we know isnt true or she infiltrated the claw which seems a bit of an odd one. Why would she serve the killers of her brother hood.

I reckon cowls daughter. I duno why. I also duno why hed save them. Could even be another clawmasters daughter like pearl or possum. Pearl is also related to topper i maintian it lol

[dawnkiller]

I dunno why a Talon would work for Laseen, although Baudin did work for Tavore in keeping Felsin safe (er, sort of), so it's probably not beyond the pale. I'm also not 100% certain she was affiliated with the Claw or anyone we've seen yet -- she says is she needs to "report" the spires, but not to whom. I think Topper's job was stated to be "kill all not authorized in the Imperial Warren," not just other Claws, so she could have been a random spy digging around in the Empire's business. Definitely on the hit list in that case.

I guess it's not totally out of the question Topper's related to Pearl. I mean, Pearl has distant Andii blood, and Topper did pull out Kurald Galain, so who knows? (Then again, so did Heuk. Which kinda confuses my theory that Silk was Tiste Liosan-related for pulling out their warren. Damn dabbling mortals.)

[Jumpy]

Slow Ben, on Apr 2 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

She's with Tay at the end of the book though isnt she? Trying to watch his back while he's battling whats his name.

Maybe, if it was Kiska, she escaped? If she is under Tay's wing he has probably taught he something of the Warrens.

dawnkiller, on Apr 4 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

I agree Apsalar is unlikely, partly due to demeanor, but primarily because of the line "My father taught me" in response to Topper's recognition of her style (it's p.202 in my copy). It could be Kiska, but since it's been a while since NoK I'm not sure. I got the impression Kiska was, if not orphaned, than at least common stock . . ?

I was wondering if she was a heretofor unreferenced child of a Talon, like Baudin was -- they were Dancer's own cadre, which would explain the emphasis on "his" style. They do seem to pass down their skills.

She came from the Mouse, didn't she? So yeah, probably not her.

Maybe Dancer has a daughter we don't know about that he thought was dead? I was thinking it was Dancer's daughter, having read these past couple, and she escaped from the Azath House. But then I remembered it was Dassem's daughter. However, he could've taughter her how to fight. :shrug: Not very likely, but who knows?

tiam, on Apr 4 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

dawnkiller, on Apr 4 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

I agree Apsalar is unlikely, partly due to demeanor, but primarily because of the line "My father taught me" in response to Topper's recognition of her style (it's p.202 in my copy). It could be Kiska, but since it's been a while since NoK I'm not sure. I got the impression Kiska was, if not orphaned, than at least common stock . . ?

I was wondering if she was a heretofor unreferenced child of a Talon, like Baudin was -- they were Dancer's own cadre, which would explain the emphasis on "his" style. They do seem to pass down their skills.

Talon was my first thought. But then why would she be in the claw. The talon were a brotherhood wiped out by the claw so they are all dead which we know isnt true or she infiltrated the claw which seems a bit of an odd one. Why would she serve the killers of her brother hood.

I reckon cowls daughter. I duno why. I also duno why hed save them. Could even be another clawmasters daughter like pearl or possum. Pearl is also related to topper i maintian it lol

I think Pearl and Topper might be related, though they more than likely hated each other.

dawnkiller, on Apr 4 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

I dunno why a Talon would work for Laseen, although Baudin did work for Tavore in keeping Felsin safe (er, sort of), so it's probably not beyond the pale. I'm also not 100% certain she was affiliated with the Claw or anyone we've seen yet -- she says is she needs to "report" the spires, but not to whom. I think Topper's job was stated to be "kill all not authorized in the Imperial Warren," not just other Claws, so she could have been a random spy digging around in the Empire's business. Definitely on the hit list in that case.

I guess it's not totally out of the question Topper's related to Pearl. I mean, Pearl has distant Andii blood, and Topper did pull out Kurald Galain, so who knows? (Then again, so did Heuk. Which kinda confuses my theory that Silk was Tiste Liosan-related for pulling out their warren. Damn dabbling mortals.)

Topper has admitted to being 1/4 Andii, right? That or someone has said it. Maybe Kalam? Laseen?

And, Heuk was Priest calling on Mother Dark's own power, right? Isn't that how Priests work in this world?

[dawnkiller]

Jumpy, on Apr 5 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Slow Ben, on Apr 2 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

She's with Tay at the end of the book though isnt she? Trying to watch his back while he's battling whats his name.

Maybe, if it was Kiska, she escaped? If she is under Tay's wing he has probably taught he something of the Warrens.

Topper let whoever it was go -- sent her away via Kurald Galain, though it wasn't specified where:

Quote

He rested a hand on her shoulder. Unconscious. Still, her heart beat. There was yet a chance...
He gestured and a pool of utter darkness emerged from beneath the girl like liquid night. She sank into it, disappearing as if into a well of ink. A small enough gesture...but he felt that he owed her at least that.
--p.202

I also believe that whoever it was was a Shadow practitioner, because on the same page she begins an attack with "Shadows threaded up from the dirt to spin about her like a whirlwind". So while it could have been Kiska healed up by Denul between that and her eventual appearance, I still doubt it.

Jumpy, on Apr 5 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Maybe Dancer has a daughter we don't know about that he thought was dead? I was thinking it was Dancer's daughter, having read these past couple, and she escaped from the Azath House. But then I remembered it was Dassem's daughter. However, he could've taughter her how to fight. :shrug: Not very likely, but who knows?

I don't know, I could swear there was a Cotillion/Apsalar conversation, I think in RG, where it was implied she was the closest thing he had to a daughter. I'll try to check on that. (Thank god I liked those parts.)

Jumpy, on Apr 5 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Topper has admitted to being 1/4 Andii, right? That or someone has said it. Maybe Kalam? Laseen?

And, Heuk was Priest calling on Mother Dark's own power, right? Isn't that how Priests work in this world?

Do we have confirmation on Topper? I thought the 1/4th convo was Pearl talking to Lostra Yil . . . (that said, I could just be memory-glitching because I don't remember a lot of reference to Topper beyond GOTM and DG. Talk about your beaurocratic oversights.)

I just found Heuk's calling on KG rather strange, since IIRC we've never seen another human do that -- everyone on the field certainly assumed the caster was a Tiste Andii. He also got a visit from an Andii (I suppose Rake, mostly for lack of options) on p.599, while he was unconscious, presumably because his usage was a curiousity. We've seen humans access the human Warren of Rashan, but until now KG has been the province of the Andii -- just like we've seen plenty of humans access Thyr, but only Silk access Kurald Liosan. I suppose there's no reason why humans couldn't tap that power, but it does seem unusual. Of course, being Elder, KG seems to have some more primal quirks we haven't seen in Rashan proper -- Heuk's use of blood as a vector for allowing people to perceive warrens, for one.

[Puck]

dawnkiller, on Apr 5 2009, 10:38 PM, said:

I just found Heuk's calling on KG rather strange, since IIRC we've never seen another human do that -- everyone on the field certainly assumed the caster was a Tiste Andii. He also got a visit from an Andii (I suppose Rake, mostly for lack of options) on p.599, while he was unconscious, presumably because his usage was a curiousity. We've seen humans access the human Warren of Rashan, but until now KG has been the province of the Andii -- just like we've seen plenty of humans access Thyr, but only Silk access Kurald Liosan. I suppose there's no reason why humans couldn't tap that power, but it does seem unusual. Of course, being Elder, KG seems to have some more primal quirks we haven't seen in Rashan proper -- Heuk's use of blood as a vector for allowing people to perceive warrens, for one.

First, regarding Topper: he admits in GotM himself that he's got Tiste Andii blood, but doesn't say how much. Based on his looks - greyish skin, strange angled eyes, white hair - I'd say he's half Andii.

As I understood it, Heuk was a human priest of Mother Dark, who couldn't access KG directly, but only through rituals [remember the jug full of blood, and he was drinking the stuff]. MD is an Elder Goddess, and as we already know with e.g. K'rul, worship of Elder Gods is based on blood. Beforehand he was going on about 'you don't want to need my help' etc., of course, was nice of him to use the blood of horses, if you ask me. And I think the Andii visiting him was a random Andii sent by Rake, maybe Spinnock.

And about Silk I've got so many theories, my head hurts.


On the thread's topic: in retrospect, what if the 'Claw' Topper sent back through KG was Havva Gulen, the new Imperial High Mage we get introduced to? We know she's been posing as a Claw, because she was the 'Claw' Possum mistakingly kills during the final battle because he thinks she's one of Mallick's claws. Topper sure knew her, and was probably powerful enough to look through her disguise.

[tiam]

dont thinks its that high mage. She doesnt seem like she wuld have a definable assasin style that Topper would recognise. Its not kiska either as she wasnt taught by her father. Also Cotillions closest thing to a daughter is apsalar. He says it to Panke that they had a falling out. It that bit hen Cotillion gathers shadows around him and panek says 'does he now think he walks unseen'

[Puck]

Who knows whether Topper did or didn't know Havva was pausing as a Claw? Or maybe she did it for such along time that he only knew her as Coil?

[tiam]

she a character we dont know yet likely to do with one of guard or a talon.

[dawnkiller]

Puck, on Apr 5 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

As I understood it, Heuk was a human priest of Mother Dark, who couldn't access KG directly, but only through rituals [remember the jug full of blood, and he was drinking the stuff]. MD is an Elder Goddess, and as we already know with e.g. K'rul, worship of Elder Gods is based on blood. Beforehand he was going on about 'you don't want to need my help' etc., of course, was nice of him to use the blood of horses, if you ask me. And I think the Andii visiting him was a random Andii sent by Rake, maybe Spinnock.

Yeah, the way he said it made me think it was going to be more ominous -- but maybe he really just meant "You don't want anyone to know what our ace is yet". Or maybe he just didn't know if what he was planning would work; he was down on his knees giving thanks when Nait met him in the middle of the unveiling...

This is a dumb question so far into the series, but does anyone remember what color Rake's hair is? I have the impression it's white, but I don't trust that. I only ask because the Andii that appeared to Heuk had black hair and black mail as his only defining characteristics.

Puck, on Apr 5 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

On the thread's topic: in retrospect, what if the 'Claw' Topper sent back through KG was Havva Gulen, the new Imperial High Mage we get introduced to? We know she's been posing as a Claw, because she was the 'Claw' Possum mistakingly kills during the final battle because he thinks she's one of Mallick's claws. Topper sure knew her, and was probably powerful enough to look through her disguise.

I don't see Havva as being this figure, mostly because she's described as having a "fat messy form" when her death breaks her illusion (p. 592). She's also a Mockra user, and of a much higher level than Possum (his own admission on the same page), so I suspect that her main advantage was in fooling the Claws who attacked her into engaging in a hand-to-hand battle with a magic-user. Granted there are other "big" characters in the books that can move well despite their mass, but Havva didn't seem the type.

It's also not clear if Havva was really Coil all along, or just assumed her appearance. All I got from her first appearance on p.292 was that Possum knew who she was, but was irritated at her "familiarity," which seemed like it was a new thing -- plus she was formerly the Archiveress of Imperial Records, and I'm not sure how compatible something like that is with Clawing. Given Havva's one internal monologue around p.312 I wouldn't be surprised if she'd killed Coil and taken her place -- she was definitely looking at traitors:

Quote

Laseen, if I chose this private moment together to tell you all I know perhaps we would have a chance -- a slim chance -- of victory against the conspiracy that has closed itself around us. I have been doing all I can. But I dare not speak openly. I dare not take the chance. I am ashamed and so sorry, my Empress. I too have failed you. All because my time in the Archives was not wasted. I know the name Jhistal. And I fear I do not have the power to oppose it.

So . . . hm. I dunno. In the grand scheme of the story it's not all that important, I suppose, but still an annoying thread to leave dangling.

(Wow, feels so good to cite page numbers again. Sometimes I just really miss college.)

[Puck]

You're probably right with Havva. It's just that I think that the person Topper dealt with should be somebody we encounter somewhere else in the book, so not Apsalar or anyone ominous we've never heard of before. If Topper recognizes the person, we should be able to do so, too. Otherwise I'd find it annoying. But that#s just me, and I'm on a reread now, so maybe I change my opinion.

Rake has white/silvery hair, btw. My first impression was it might be Nimander standing above Heuk, but that's because I imagine him with black hair, for some reason I can't remember myself.