[Malaclypse]

beru, on Mar 31 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

Malaclypse, on Mar 31 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

<snip>

right, to sum up...blood-oil is made from otataral, which is present in the Teblor homeland. Bloodwood has no necessary link to blood-oil. The Teblor, and the Toblakai before them, presumably call the oil they distill from otataral 'blood-oil' because it was found to improve the natural qualities of bloodwood. They are not related in nature. The Letherii have been exposed to bloodwood through the Edur in RG, but not blood-oil. Blood-oil is never mentioned in MT or RG. For all we know, the Edur have forgotten about blood-oil, as they have apparently forgotten about munitions (they taught the Moranth about them originally ). You should be equating blood-oil with otataral because they, unlike the other two items being discussed here, are related in that blood-oil is made from otataral. I hope that is clear now.

Bloodwood and Blackwood are two different species of tree. In RG, bloodwood is used as an ornamental wood among the Edur. I doubt the Letherii notice or care, but the implication is that bloodwood has been historically held in high esteem among the Edur so making bowls out of it is disgustingly decadent to the more traditional-minded Edur, although Bruthen Trana uses a highly-decorated bloodwood sceptre as the symbol of his office. This is a bit strange as it is never mentioned in MT at all but it's not a big deal.

Bloodwood is a 'normal' wood, just very hard and relatively light, while blackwood retains magical qualities after harvesting. Bloodwood is sacred to the Teblor and Blackwood is sacred to the Edur. the mention of 'black bloodwood' is self-explanatory, ie., if it were normally black they would have just said bloodwood, so it's an exceptionally dark piece of bloodwood, not another name for blackwood.

Clear as mud?

bold is suposed to say blackwood right?

no.

*sigh*

from RG:

Quote

the short sceptre he had made his official symbol of office, black bloodwood from the Edur homeland with silver caps studded in polished onyx stones

Quote

The ornate carriage, trimmed in gleaming bloodwood

Quote

and bloodwood itself had been carved into bowls, cups and cooking utensils.
Or to trim an ostentatious carriage.

Quote

Tied to his back was a horn and bloodwood bow, unstrung. At his right hip was a quiver of arrows, bloodwood shafts and hawk-feather fletching;

Quote

Tomad knew him (Karsa)for what he was, the moment the giant warrrior took his first step onto Edur Bloodwood.

This is every occurrence of the word 'bloodwood' in RG. There are no occurrences of this word in MT.

[beru]

/igiveup
ok...
i see i thoght there was no bloodwood in edur lands...
then we agree on all spots
thank you for calryfiying

[Abyss]

Nicely collected Mal. And agreed, the Leth Edur have both blackwood AND bloodwood, while the Teblor have only bloodwood and treat it with bloodoil.

It's interesting that blackwood, KE aspected, naturally has properties that bloodwood acquires with bloodoil (Otataral) application. Hetan's point re Otataral giving Rallick, Lorn and Tavore healing powers is a nice connection.

As for ironwood, that would seem to be a (Genabackis or 7C - anyone remember where Karsa got his ironwood sword?) tree species with similar use to bloodwood but less effective for weapons.

Btw, bloodwood is also the name of a 'real' tree in Australia.


- Abyss,

[sappers to the breach]

also ironwood is a real plant from southwest us.

"
Olneya ironwood is very hard and heavy. Its density is greater than water and thus sinks; it does not float downstream in washes, and must be moved by current motion. One popular usage for the wood is for knife handles, since its hardness, beautiful grain, and coloring is ideal.Due to the high hardness of the wood, processing wood is difficult, and requires the hacksaw, or other metal-working type tools. Final treatment of the wood with solutions can be difficult, due to the desert ironwood's high density."




wiki

[D'rek]

Good detectiving and quoting Hetan and Mal.

I think the biggest confusion comes from that the Edur talk about blackwood likes it's sacred (which I suppose it is), but then in RG, all that decadence stuff with carriages and bowls is about bloodwood, which one would think would mean bloodwood is the sacred one. In the end, I guess they're all pretty special.

Abyss, on Mar 31 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

As for ironwood, that would seem to be a (Genabackis or 7C - anyone remember where Karsa got his ironwood sword?) tree species with similar use to bloodwood but less effective for weapons.

99% sure Karsa made his ironwood sword while he was in Raraku since I think he managed to bring his original bloodwood sword all the way to Raraku. In any case, he reflects back upon how whatever sword he brought to Raraku had since cracked and broken and he made an ironwood one to replace it...

[Hetan]

yup, just to alleviate that 1% of doubt :

Quote

trees that grew
entirely underground, a mass of roots stretching out for leagues, from
which the ironwood of Karsa’s new sword had been carved – his bloodsword
having cracked long ago.

[blackzoid]

Also from TBH and its appendix:

p254, Apsalar and the ghosts going to the ship that Paran is on using a fragment of Shadow.
'Tiste Edur forest,' Curdle said, scamparing ahead. 'They like their forests.'
'All those natural shadows,' Telorast added. 'Power in permanence. Blackwood,bloodwood, all sorts of terrible things. The Eres were right to fear.'


p282 Mappo and Icarium talking about Sorrit's death.
'The crucifix, it is Blackwood. From the realm of the Tiste Edur'

Appendix
Blackwood: A rare seaworthy wood
Bloodwood: A rare wood used by the Tiste Edur

[Chris]

Abyss, on Mar 31 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

It's interesting that blackwood, KE aspected, naturally has properties that bloodwood acquires with bloodoil (Otataral) application. Hetan's point re Otataral giving Rallick, Lorn and Tavore healing powers is a nice connection.

Spoiler

I don't think Blackwood is KE aspected. It appears to come from Kurald Galain. Endest Silann talks about the blackwood forests and the blackwood trees found in Suruth Common during his POV flashback to Kharkanas in TTH.

From the beginning of Chapter 12 in TTH:

Quote

Spoiler

The stately trees with their black trunks and midnight leaves formed a rough ring encircling Suruth Common. . . . Autumn had arrived, and the air was filled with drifting filaments from the blackwood.

It was said the Andii came from the forests and their natural clearings. Born to give breath to the sacred wood, and that the first fall of his people occurred the moment they walked out to set down the first shaped stone of this city. How many failings had there been since? Suruth Common was the last fragment of the old forest left in all Kharkanas. Blackwood itself had fed the great forges.

Spoiler

Endest's flashback goes on to discuss the plotting between Rake, Andarist, and Silchas Ruin about how to bring about the end of the fighting amongst the Tiste Andii within Kurald Galain, which I believe comes well belfore the Tiste Edur are even created, or at the very latest before the Tiste Andii leave Kurald Galain.

We were first introduced to blackwood with the Tiste Edur, but it appears that blackwood has a much older, and more appropriate (it is blackwood after all, not greywood) origin with the Tiste Andii in Kurald Galain.

Also, I believe there is a line in TTH that says the wagon inside Dragnipur is made from blackwood, but I couldn't track it down.

Modedit: Use spoilers if you absolutly have to add something from a later book than what is being discussed in that forum.

[beru]

i think you sould spoiler that... ( [ spoiler][/spoiler ])

[Chris]

Sorry, I found the topic off a recent posts link and didn't check to see which forum I was in.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I remember when Udinaas was baiting Fear, he said something about "when a bloodwood tree toppled in the forest." Hm.

[Blues]

Malaclypse, on Mar 31 2009, 06:27 AM, said:

Bloodwood and Blackwood are two different species of tree. In RG, bloodwood is used as an ornamental wood among the Edur. I doubt the Letherii notice or care, but the implication is that bloodwood has been historically held in high esteem among the Edur so making bowls out of it is disgustingly decadent to the more traditional-minded Edur, although Bruthen Trana uses a highly-decorated bloodwood sceptre as the symbol of his office. This is a bit strange as it is never mentioned in MT at all but it's not a big deal.

Its Karos Invictad that uses a bloodwood sceptre as symbol of his office. Which makes a lot more sense since he is a Letherii.


PS appreciate all the information compiled here, as I was a bit confused about the issue as well.

[ansible]

First, sorry for the thread necro. This seems to be a good collection of everything we know about bloodwood/blackwood so I thought I'd just try to continue.

Now, the quotes that caught my eye and the reason I'm posting:

House of Chains, Tor MMPB, p.528 said:

An oppressive gloom suffused all that lay beneath the forest canopy. A number of living trees showed torn bark, and while the bark was black, the smooth, wet wood underneath was blood red. Fallen companions revealed that the fierce crimson turned black with death. The wounded upright trees reminded Cutter of Darist - of the Tiste Andii's black skin and the deep red cuts slashing through it.

Cutter is about to find Traveller on Drift Avalii as he helps Darist defend it from the Edur ships. A few pages back, Darist says, "These surface structures are not Andii - they are Edur, and were in ruin when we first arrived." This pretty much confirms that these are blackwood trees, brought by the Edur. Midnight Tides gives another link:

Midnight Tides, Tor MMPB, p.798 said:

Trull's weapon possessed the greatest reach, but he did not attempt to stab the creature. Its arms were lifted to fend off the attack, and Trull chose to batter at those with a high sweep of the spear shaft. Like a serpent, Serenity's right arm writhed around the shaft, binding the weapon. A sudden flex and the Blackwood cracked, then splintered, the red core welling into view down the length of the split. Trull had little time to feel shock, as Serenity's left hand lashed out.

So, we know that the core of blackwood is red. It also seems that this red core turns black when the tree dies, which is reinforced by blackwood being referred to as "the living wood."

My theory is that blackwood and bloodwood come from the same tree. We know the Edur were on Genabackis at one point (because of the Moranth), so it's plausible they brought the trees with them. I would guess that the black bark of the tree is naturally stronger than the soft red core, which is why the Edur use it in their ships and spears. They must infuse the wood with Kurald Emurlahn to keep it alive and give it its self-repairing and magic-resisting properties (although these are remarkably similar to the properties blood-oil gives...). The Teblor use the red core for their swords and armor, because the soft core would absorb blood-oil more readily than the tough outer bark. The blood-oil also somehow keeps the wood alive and repairs itself, an effect of the otataral.

Even imbued, neither bloodwood or blackwood is unbreakable; Trull's spear breaks twice in MT, and Karsa's bloodsword eventually breaks too (although I wonder if it still would have broken if he had a continuous supply of blood-oil). Edur use the soft red core for ceremonial purposes, rather than battle, because it is softer and less useful to them; so they still have bloodwood, just not imbued with blood-oil. Also, the reference to "black bloodwood" could easily be bloodwood that has died, while normal bloodwood is still infused with KE sorcery to keep it alive.

This would be easier if we had a firsthand view of a bloodwood tree, but Karsa barely speaks of them, and we never see one. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[worry]

Sweet theory, but how do you account for red-spotted morningwood?

[Sinisdar Toste]

that be the herps, or so the doctors say