[Malaclypse]

Chainsaw, on Sep 9 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

During my current re-read of HoC, I came upon the passage concerning the Otataral dragon and realized I had completely forgotten about it. I also became intrigued by the mystery surrounding it.

The current theories I have seen on this board basically amount to other Eleint bottling up the OD so that its negating influence on the warrens is eliminated. Pearl seems to agree with this conclusion when he and Lostara Yil stumble upon it in HoC. I would like to propose a slightly different scenario for how the Otataral dragon came to be imprisoned... the sequence of events goes like this:


1. Imperial Warren = Kallor's old empire

2. Anti-Kallor mages open portal to foreign world

3. CG is pulled through

4. CG defeated, chained

5. Original portal to foreign world must be closed

6. Otataral dragon is crucified there as a stopper


Sound far-fetched? Maybe... but here's why I think this could be the case.


First, it's still alive:

Quote

'It's still alive, you know,' Pearl whispered.

If it's such a threat, why leave the OD alive? Yes, it must be very powerful, but we've already seen dragons die. If 'six or more' other dragons can't kill a single one...

Next, the dragon is crucified:

Quote

Wings spread, pinned wide. Hind limbs impaled. Chains wrapped about its neck, holding its massive wedge-shaped head up, as if staring skyward-

The specific orientation of the OD caught my eye. Why go to trouble to keep its head up, if you merely wish to kill it or imprison it for no specific purpose?

Maybe it's because the sky above it looked like:

Quote

...a sea of stars marked here and there with swirls of glowing mist.

Pearl calls it a "foreign sky - as foreign as can be." Additionally, Heboric ventures to a similar place when he has an interstellar run-in with more jade giants:

Quote

And he felt himself sliding down - amidst a sea of stars that swirled in the blackness yet were sharp with sudden clarity. In what seemed a vast distance, duller spheres swam, clustering about the fiery stars...

So, we now have a common ground between the OD's pocket warren, and the jade giants (who are themselves related to the fall of the CG): what appears to be outer space.

The next interesting snippet between Pearl and Lostara:

Quote

'No. Well, yes. But... look carefully. It's enclosed in a sphere. A pocket warren, a real unto itself--'

'Or the entranceway,' she suggested. 'Sealing--'

'A gate. Queen of Dreams, I think you're right.'

Now it gets interesting... a crucified Otataral dragon sealing... a gate? And it's still alive?

We also know that the Imperial Warren used to be Kallor's empire... which he destroyed... but it was also where the CG was pulled into this world. Perhaps this 'gate' needed to be sealed - but what to seal it with?

In DG, and HoC as well, there is a clear parallel drawn between the jade giants and otataral... even a suggestion by Sha'ik (Felisin) that otataral is anathema to, and may indeed be created by, the jade giants and their energy.

So... we all see how devastating the fall of the CG was, and how much Ascendant power was required to defeat/chain him. Clearly, more denizens from that foreign realm would not be welcome. In response, I am proposing that a collection of powers crucified the Otataral dragon at the gate, leaving it ALIVE so as to ensure that its Otataral power would act as a buffer and keep any more unwanted visitors from crashing through.

This is what we know of who imprisoned it:

Quote

'More like six, maybe more. Those two sets' - he pointed - 'were the last to leave. Big bastards. Well, that answers the question of who, or what, was capable of subduing the Otataral dragon. Other dragons, of course. Even so, it could not have been easy.'

I initially took this to mean other Eleint, but why not Soletaken Ascendants? Why not Anomander Rake, Osserc, Silanah... or whoever else of draconic power was at the Fall and/or Chaining? The last two were the biggest - it's been mentioned several times that Rake and Silanah are far larger than most dragons we see buzzing around.

Then, finally, once Pearl and Lostara take the gate into Kurald Thyrllan, Pearl discovers a pyramidal monument on which is enscribed:

Quote

'Names!' He spun to her. 'The names! The ones who imprisoned the Otataral Dragon! They're all here!'

In my opinion, it seems unlikely that a bunch of Eleint who waxed the OD just for being Otataral-aspected would bother with a monument listing themselves as the perps. Heck, I'm not even sure Eleint as a language exists in written form...?

Instead, I read that as a monument describing... accountability. As if to say: "We did this. We weren't happy about it, but it had to be done, for the greater good." That just feels very Rake-ish to me, in particular.




So... there's my theory. The OD was used, because of its Otataral aspect, to seal the original gate from which the CG fell. Thoughts?

[beru]

he convinced me uterly... fund one error silanha is pureblood not soltaken..

[Aptorian]

It's a nice theory but I'm not convinced at all.

The fall happened on Korelri, not Jacuruku. No reason to chain the dragon on Jacuruku or in the IW.

The description of what the Dragon is looking a world with a sun a spheres. That would be planets and moons. The dragon could be looking back down on Burn for all we know. No connection to Jadestatues there.

Also the dragon isn't sealing any gate or tear into the GGs world. If it is, it's doing a piss poor job of it. According to Heborics vision it's a gigantic hole where scores of Jadestatues are falling through. The comming of Jadestatues tells you that the hole is not closed.

I think the O-dragon is a natural creature. It was born to adress the aspected dragons of the House system. It is balance, able to counterbalance any of the other magical dragons. Maybe it was chained because it would have ruined the house system, maybe it was not a nice dragon but still needed for a rainy day.

[Grief]

I agree with apt.
The OT dragon is there to counteract the dragons. To give balance.
If you killed it, it would destroy the balance. However for Kr'uls baragain we know the dragons were required to stop interfering.
That partiuclar dragon staying active is going to be one hell of a lot of interference. There would be no order if it went around meessing with the warrens etc.

Also, fairly sure it's unkillable.

It's the only Anti-magic creature we know born of that world.

If Tiam is Elder/Unkillable, as are the other elders, it stands to reason that the embodiment of the Anti-magic is likewise an elemental force.

[Wry]

It's a nice theory and holds up well but as Apt says, the rent to the CGs world is still open so it can't really be true.

I've always thought the answer was less complex. The warrens all have dragons aspected to them, now if you wanted to seal a warren presumably you need to take care of the dragon no?

In tBh when spite draws on SD it's described as "the spirit of entropy... otaral" or somesuch. therefore SD is Otaral flavoured so it makes sense that the Otaral dragon would be the one aspected to it. We know the Soletaken Eleint sealed SD, and presumably they had to take care of it's dragon (i've heard it said that only the "new" warrens have dragons but i think that's wrong for several reasons). We've also seen that Rake when neutralising dragon aspected to other warrens has not killed tham, and i assume that's because it would mean something disastrous for said warren.

Therefore, SD is an otaral flavoured warren, the Otaral Dragon most likely to be SD-aspected, crucified as part of, or to prevent it's undoing of, the sealing of SD.

Makes sense to me!

[Mentalist]

hmm

could the OT be the direct opposite of Tiam?
Tiam is the mother of Dragons, and we always here of her and MommyD as the two earliest entitities.

but if MommyD represents matter, Tiam is the mother of dragons, thus is aspected to SD and magic, wouldn't it make sense that interaction of matter and magic would create a third force?

Otataral is completely different from all else in Wu. it is created as REACTION to massive amount of sorcery--I recall Treach's dying vision in MoI tying the Ritual of the Beast to the destruction of the Otataral Island.

so, based onthat analogy, could the OT not be an Antithesis to Tiam?

[Grief]

Yes, pretty sure OT dragon is there tl provide balance, he is anti magic, balancing magic.

And yes, only younger warrens have dragons.

SD is in every dragons blood. All dragons are also aspected to SD.

It makes no sense for the OT dragon to be aspected to the warren of magic, considering that he is anti magic.

Unless he has his own otataral anti-warren or whatever, that is what he'd be as[ected to.

In fact, I believe someone comments on this, that it is amazing or whatever, a dragon that is not magic aspected like all others, or something.

[Wry]

Grief, on Mar 29 2009, 06:41 PM, said:

Yes, pretty sure OT dragon is there tl provide balance, he is anti magic, balancing magic.

And yes, only younger warrens have dragons.

SD is in every dragons blood. All dragons are also aspected to SD.

It makes no sense for the OT dragon to be aspected to the warren of magic, considering that he is anti magic.

Unless he has his own otataral anti-warren or whatever, that is what he'd be as[ected to.

In fact, I believe someone comments on this, that it is amazing or whatever, a dragon that is not magic aspected like all others, or something.

See there's just so many baseless assumptions there.

Otataral is not anti-magic, it's poisonous to users of the younger warrens and can nullify that form of magic, it doesn't have any affect on elder warrens. This we know.

We don't know what form the aspecting takes, so we can't say that all dragons are aspected to SD in the same way the "guardian dragons" are to the younger warrens. I'd say it's extremely unlikely that there are thousands (hundreds of thousands, millions?) of dragons all acting in that specific way for SD as you suggest.

It explicitly says that SD is otataral flavoured (in the same way telas is fire) at the start of bonehunters. This isn't POV, where a character can mislead s or be mistaken, it narration and as close to fact as you get with SE.

Lastly you state, as if fact, that only younger warrens have dragons, when i don't ever recall that being said in the books, and certainly not from a trustworthy source. In reality if Krull created the younger warrens he di so by copying the elder ones, which makes it more likely he replicated a system involving dragons which was already in place in the elder.

[Mentalist]

Not all Elder warrens have dragons--OP, for instance wouldn't have one, since it is teh Jaghut "world", so to say.

SD was where the eleint came from--it is their home, place of their origin. As such, it makes sence that they all share some connection to it.

what other elder warrens do we know of, aside from the Tiste ones? (and i doubt that Tiste would allow the Eleint to oversee their homes)

[lobo the wolfman]

Mentalist, on Mar 30 2009, 07:02 PM, said:

Not all Elder warrens have dragons--OP, for instance wouldn't have one, since it is teh Jaghut "world", so to say.

SD was where the eleint came from--it is their home, place of their origin. As such, it makes sence that they all share some connection to it.

what other elder warrens do we know of, aside from the Tiste ones? (and i doubt that Tiste would allow the Eleint to oversee their homes)

Tellann, the T'lan Imass warren, and Omtose Phellack the Jaghut warren of ice are both elder. The Forkrul Assail and KCCM mosh likely use elder warrens as well.

Just as a idea could the OD have been used as some kind of bandage that the soletaken dragons used to contain the damage done to K'rul when he made a warren for the ruin of Jacuruku. In the prologe to MOI both Draconus and TSOCN where horrifyed when K'rul told them of his plans.

Doesn't explain where it come from, but just a thought on why it was crucified and why it was crucified in that warren.