[Pilfer]

Aptorian, on Apr 14 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

Oh god how I hate that "not even cotillion" discussion, it's been done a hundred times and it can never be anything but a matter of interpretation. Cotillion fan boys will deny what ever and people who love Apsalar will claim another thing. Meanwhile Apt with the common sense gets irritated

p. 846 in BH

Apsalar meets up with ST:

Quote

"Tell Cotillion, I have done as he asked."
Shadowthrone made a whispering sound, like sighing, and one almost formless hand emerged from the folds of his ghostly cloak, gripping the silver head of the cane, that tapped once on the cobbles. "I watched, my dear. Your Shadow Dance. From the foot of the Rampart Way and onward, I was witness."
She said nothing.
Shadowthrone resumed. "Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion."
Still, Apsalar did not speak.
The god suddenly giggled. "Too many bad judgements , the poor woman. As we feared." A pause, then another giggle. "Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven claws - all by your hands, dear lass. I still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now. Too bad for her...]

bla bla the scene ends.

Shadowthrone nevers says "Cotillion could not have done that", what he is expressing is disbelief at Apsalar, whom they considered just a pawn, actually managed to kill not just the Clawmaster but 307 other claws.

Apsalar is a flawed carbon copy of Cotillion. She may have grown during the 2-4 years that pass between the ending of GOTM and BH, but to actually suggest that Cotillion could not have done what she did is silly. What ever Apsalar can do, Cotillion can do, backed up by about a hundred years of experience that Apsalar does not command.

If you want to translate Shadowthrones meaning, he most likely meant that he's never seen Cotillion do anything like that.

Never mind the fact that Cotillion destroyed the Edur fleet outside Drift Avalii, easily killing as many Edur as the number of Claws killed in BH.
EDIT: Hmm, that reply seems to be twenty minutes late

I took it simply as not even Cotillion expected her to accomplish something like that. Despite being possessed, they both probably had doubts about her.

Not anymore.

[End of Disc One]

Pilfer, on Apr 24 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Apr 14 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

Oh god how I hate that "not even cotillion" discussion, it's been done a hundred times and it can never be anything but a matter of interpretation. Cotillion fan boys will deny what ever and people who love Apsalar will claim another thing. Meanwhile Apt with the common sense gets irritated

p. 846 in BH

Apsalar meets up with ST:

Quote

"Tell Cotillion, I have done as he asked."
Shadowthrone made a whispering sound, like sighing, and one almost formless hand emerged from the folds of his ghostly cloak, gripping the silver head of the cane, that tapped once on the cobbles. "I watched, my dear. Your Shadow Dance. From the foot of the Rampart Way and onward, I was witness."
She said nothing.
Shadowthrone resumed. "Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion."
Still, Apsalar did not speak.
The god suddenly giggled. "Too many bad judgements , the poor woman. As we feared." A pause, then another giggle. "Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven claws - all by your hands, dear lass. I still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now. Too bad for her...]

bla bla the scene ends.

Shadowthrone nevers says "Cotillion could not have done that", what he is expressing is disbelief at Apsalar, whom they considered just a pawn, actually managed to kill not just the Clawmaster but 307 other claws.

Apsalar is a flawed carbon copy of Cotillion. She may have grown during the 2-4 years that pass between the ending of GOTM and BH, but to actually suggest that Cotillion could not have done what she did is silly. What ever Apsalar can do, Cotillion can do, backed up by about a hundred years of experience that Apsalar does not command.

If you want to translate Shadowthrones meaning, he most likely meant that he's never seen Cotillion do anything like that.

Never mind the fact that Cotillion destroyed the Edur fleet outside Drift Avalii, easily killing as many Edur as the number of Claws killed in BH.
EDIT: Hmm, that reply seems to be twenty minutes late

I took it simply as not even Cotillion expected her to accomplish something like that. Despite being possessed, they both probably had doubts about her.

Not anymore.

Whoa I never thought of it that way. It's amazing what a new user can bring to an old debate.

[Salt-Man Z]

Yeah, big props to Pilfer for that.

[D'rek]

Hmmm, that's a good idea. Virtual rep to Pilfer!

[Silencer]

Indeed! A most interesting take. ^^

[Xachariah]

Personally I took it to mean, "Not even Cotillion...could have danced like that."


Remember, Cotillion used to be called Dancer for his prowness in the Shadow Dance. I'd guess that Apsalar, being a 20 year old woman and having the knowledge of the former greatest living Shadow Dancer, could easily surpass Dancer in the Shadow Dance. Youth and flexibility combined with Dancers experiance. Shadowthrone was clearly in awe of Apslar's Dance in that particular scene, not any general demonstration of power or skill.

Dancer is now Cotillion; the Rope, Patron of Assassins. No longer Dancer and no longer needing to dance the Shadow Dance, he is ascended. He is beyond mortal techniques such as the Shadow Dance. Now prefering his namesake as the Patron of Assassins, the Rope.

[Fisher]

Poll: How many people recognised Cotillion as Dancer before the reveal, because they knew what a 'cotillion' was?

Myself: The word sounded familiar, to the point that I knew it wasn't a proper noun like Kalam, but wasn't sure of exactly what it meant until I looked it up.

[RangerSG]

Fisher, on May 8 2009, 03:38 AM, said:

Poll: How many people recognised Cotillion as Dancer before the reveal, because they knew what a 'cotillion' was?

Myself: The word sounded familiar, to the point that I knew it wasn't a proper noun like Kalam, but wasn't sure of exactly what it meant until I looked it up.

That's not why I knew. But I had guessed the prior identities of ST and the Rope before the reveal.

[Salt-Man Z]

I don't even remember not knowing that Kellanved/Dancer were Shadowthrone/Cotillion. I mean, I'm sure I did at some point, but I can't even conceive of it now.

[redJAKO]

Silencer, on Mar 23 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

I think the difference is that, while Apsalar has access to Shadow, and can perform a Shadow Dance, she doesn't have Cotillion's rope because it IS a unique weapon to his position - as the Rope, he represents all assassinations that have ever occurred, and he forms his rope from shadow itself. Apsalar cannot do this, as she is NOT the Rope, she was just posessed by him.

There's quite a bit of emphasis in the earlier books about Cotillion as the Rope - represented by "a count of knots unending". So it's pretty specific to him.

And yes, the rope itself is freaking win. ^^

The scene against the Edur with Cotillion..."mists of blood" floating about his victims..that rope is the shiat.

Also, do recall that Apsalar SURPASSES the "Dancer" at his own Shadow Dancing game when she rampages on the Claw, hence she improved at her own...(never thought I heard about it) latent abilities? Or only those endowed to her as being 1) possessed and 2) follower of shadow giving her warren, and apparently shadow dancing.

Lostara Yil was also a dancer? wt...


Edit: didn't read the thread, above is redundant to a point:

Also would add however, Kalam does in fact "slow" time down to a certain degree (well, speeds himself up), yet, does not Shadow Dance with no "patron" God, is a monster, but sure didn't slaughter 100

This post has been edited by redJAKO: 19 July 2009 - 08:52 AM

[Cedz]

On the topic of Kalam, things would get interesting in the Versus debate should he happen to die.

This post has been edited by Cedz: 28 August 2010 - 01:54 AM

[Silk]

There's a thought.... a patron'ed Kalam under which God though?

[HiddenOne]

I must point out that, to my dismay, none of you have struck upon this elegant, but very possible explanation to this argument.

Shadowthrone's comments "Not even Cotillion" are referring to the fact that Apsalar's boobies had broken free from her leather armor bustier after Claw #147, therefore adding a new level of enchantment to the graceful deadliness of the Shadow Dance.

Thank you for the soon-to-be-arriving rep.

[Seras]

H.D., on 23 March 2009 - 06:31 AM, said:

Cotillion is also known as THE ROPE. It is a fairly unique technique, and we have seen no one else whose style remotely matches this. Before becoming Cotillion, however, he was DANCER. What Apsalar does is Shadow Dancing, which is probably the basis of Cotillion's assassination technique. She has some knowledge of Dancer's past, however, not ALL knowledge of it, which would explain the shadow dancing stuff.

I would say that you should look at it as a Master-Apprentice type relationship, with the Apprentice learning all they could up until the point the Master dies and having left no information on the advancement.

Just, my opinion. But, I agree, Cotillion's rope is sick.

Spoiler

Didn't Shimmer use a whip-blade to fight off the Claw during the end of RotCG?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Erayle, on 11 September 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

H.D., on 23 March 2009 - 06:31 AM, said:

Cotillion is also known as THE ROPE. It is a fairly unique technique, and we have seen no one else whose style remotely matches this. Before becoming Cotillion, however, he was DANCER. What Apsalar does is Shadow Dancing, which is probably the basis of Cotillion's assassination technique. She has some knowledge of Dancer's past, however, not ALL knowledge of it, which would explain the shadow dancing stuff.

I would say that you should look at it as a Master-Apprentice type relationship, with the Apprentice learning all they could up until the point the Master dies and having left no information on the advancement.

Just, my opinion. But, I agree, Cotillion's rope is sick.

Spoiler

Didn't Shimmer use a whip-blade to fight off the Claw during the end of RotCG?

Yes, but that still seems to be completely different.

[Nemorensis]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 September 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

Erayle, on 11 September 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Spoiler

Didn't Shimmer use a whip-blade to fight off the Claw during the end of RotCG?

Yes, but that still seems to be completely different.

Realworld whipsword

[champ]

Nemorensis, on 14 September 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 September 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

Erayle, on 11 September 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Spoiler

Didn't Shimmer use a whip-blade to fight off the Claw during the end of RotCG?

Yes, but that still seems to be completely different.

Realworld whipsword

a guy used one in one of the recent films i watched, either Ong Bak 3 or Goemon! pretty bad ass

[Abyss]

I always took ST's comment to mean that as far as he knew, not even Cotillion had ever done what she just did. Which does not mean he couldn't, rather, that he hadn't as far as ST knew.

Historically we know Dancer's job was to sneak into places and assassinate the major players, and at other times protect Kellanved, so it's not like he was strolling into whole temples of mad crazy assassin-mages and throwing down on them for shits and giggles.

And as an aside, while there were shadow (dancer) cults and death cults and Falad's personal cadres that were made up of nasty groups of assassins, it does seem like prior to Dancer's Talon and later Surly's Claw, there were no 'armies of assassins' in any real sense back when Kel and Dancer and co were buildling the Empire, tho it seems the Shadow Cult we saw in NoK was close.


As for the Rope's rope, imnsho that's a shadowstuff construct that does what it does because it's Cotillion weilding it. Shadowthrone could have identical control over shadowstuff and could probably create an identical rope but wouldn't be able to make it do what Cots does with it.

But back when he was Dancer and was using a rope as a weapon it was probably a variation of rope dart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_dart whip and garrot.



@champoon - i want you to know the link chain you just sent me on ate a full hour of my life.

[champ]

Abyss, on 14 September 2010 - 02:17 PM, said:

@champoon - i want you to know the link chain you just sent me on ate a full hour of my life.

=/

did you find it? am busy looking through now and it's bugging me which film i seen it in, watched that many subtitled films lately that they have all merged together

This post has been edited by champooon: 14 September 2010 - 07:34 PM

[champ]

bah i give up, i can even picture the scene which is doing my head it, a guys surrounded by millions of enemies and he goes medieval - using the same weapon as below - i can even remember thinking, "ah sweet, i wonder if thats the weapon ICE was writing about" and "so thats how its used"

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This post has been edited by champooon: 14 September 2010 - 06:14 PM