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power levels foolio's rambling Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 01:58 PM

I am having a hard time understanding power level, and unfortunate this is definitely going to be a who can kick who’s ass thread.

It seems to me like you have powerful bad-mofos who can be hurt by normal means, then guys that really, barring something crazy, like getting dragnipured, that cant be killed. It also seems that for the powerful, getting dragnipured is not death. Maybe worse than death but that’s for another time. I would put DU in the category of elites that can be hurt/killed by normal means. I don’t know this but do assume it. Then you have folks like Raest, Scabandari Bloodeye, and Silchas Ruin that cant be killed under normal circumstances. For an example Scabandari stabs SR in the back with a magical uber dagger, but knows this will only incapacitate him, he realizes that even though the guy is helpless he cant be killed, so he delivers him to the azath. Surely the Jaghut that originally barrowed Raest would have killed him if they could. The super powerfull get their essence “trapped” in a finest, but does being a finest eligible badass mean you could beat DU? This seems to be a sort of paradox.



In TTH when discussing what DU would have done if he knew they had something to do with his ship’s crews death, Cotillion, speaking to Shadow Throne says that DU would have killed them both if he knew they were involved. Were they serious? The mages in ROTCG did not seem to have a hard time having the earth swallow DU, Shadow throne should be able to do something, right?



I tend to believe that in the case of the Karsa V Icarium fight that had Karsa pressed his advantage while Icarium was on the ground unconscious after the punch that Icarium would have auto-awakened like DU in NOK. But say it was Silchas Ruin, could you just chop him to pieces while he was unconscious but him later reform his body, or would it be impossible to actually chop him up?



Raest’s power level in GOTM seem to be on a level that far out reaches anyone else that we have seen. He really does not need a functioning body. Can walk with broken legs , can rip dragon flesh with broken arms, etc, etc. This is all before he gets his finnest which would have made him even more horrifying. However he is held and captured by an Azath, yet Icarium destroyed an Azath but can be knocked unconscious by a punch from Karsa. Enough rambling…



Comments? Corrections? Ridicule?
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#2 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:19 PM

Yup, pretty much.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#3 User is offline   L'oric 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:42 PM

There is a passage in HoC or TB that suggests that the Imass chained up powerful enemies instead of killing them off in order to leech off their power and add it to the Tellan Ritual/Warren.

So in effect they would get a power boost off each "capture."

Now I am wondering if the passage mentions Ritual or Warren though.

Which brings me to another point of interest for me and I think it might be a reason why Shadow seems to be so powerful, even fractured, since it seems to contain of shadow of all such chainings or imprisonments. I think thats from an Edgewalker Cotillion musing.

Anyway I find it strange that the series goes from anyone is killable to some are unkillable to its easy to come back to life and its impossible to come back to life all at the same time. I mean strange in a good way. Apply absolute rules always and then break them with other rules and still manage to maintain cohesiveness.

Would love to have seen Raest and the Finnest versus the world btw.

Sincerely

This post has been edited by L'oric: 05 March 2009 - 03:51 PM

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#4 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:46 PM

Quote

There is a passage in HoC or TB that suggests that the Imass chained up powerful enemies instead of killing them off in order to leech off there power and add it to the Tellan Ritual/Warren.

So in effect they would get a power boost off each "capture."


well that would make sense. I was assuming that all the Imass victims, like the Forkrul Assail in Karsa's homeland, were trapped because the couldnt be killed. I was thinking that it was strange that a single Forkrul Assail cant be killed but two gods, cotillion and Shadow throne could be easily killed by a sword...

Quote

Would love to have seen Raest and the Finnest versus the world btw.

yeah. I recently did a re-read of the raest passage in GOTM and he is massively powered without his finnest. Cant imagine him getting his hands on it...

This post has been edited by foolio: 05 March 2009 - 03:49 PM

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#5 User is offline   Onos 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:44 PM

View Postfoolio, on Mar 5 2009, 09:46 AM, said:

Quote

There is a passage in HoC or TB that suggests that the Imass chained up powerful enemies instead of killing them off in order to leech off there power and add it to the Tellan Ritual/Warren.

So in effect they would get a power boost off each "capture."


well that would make sense. I was assuming that all the Imass victims, like the Forkrul Assail in Karsa's homeland, were trapped because the couldnt be killed. I was thinking that it was strange that a single Forkrul Assail cant be killed but two gods, cotillion and Shadow throne could be easily killed by a sword...

Quote

Would love to have seen Raest and the Finnest versus the world btw.

yeah. I recently did a re-read of the raest passage in GOTM and he is massively powered without his finnest. Cant imagine him getting his hands on it...


And strangely the missing Tyrant in Daru is even more powerful... or at least that is the impression i get. And it took the comebined might of the Jaghut and Imass to bring Raest to heel.

Perhaps it is a question of imprisoning and killing at the same time? The Imass can eventually over power a creature with magic, but while they are doing so cant get close enough to kill it as magic is slamming against the creature, and to be close enough to make a killing cut would get in the way of the magic. Then they leave good enough alone and in peace and quiet build up the wards to keep the creature in place. I also imagine the most powerful creatures have incredible regenerative powers, as well as a powerful soul. Perhaps better to chain the body (with the soul) and to release the soul... cause then who knows where the soul would show up next.
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#6 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:17 PM

Quote

Perhaps it is a question of imprisoning and killing at the same time? The Imass can eventually over power a creature with magic, but while they are doing so cant get close enough to kill it as magic is slamming against the creature, and to be close enough to make a killing cut would get in the way of the magic. Then they leave good enough alone and in peace and quiet build up the wards to keep the creature in place.


another good point
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#7 User is offline   Xardean 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:30 PM

Was Raests power in GotM a GotMism? It would make alot of sense for it to be that way, for me atleast. Has anything else i nthe series been so powerful to be able to change bodies with their will and power?

Kinda random but during the fight with Mamoth/Raest (or whatever his name was) he got hit with a moranth munition. And Quick mentioned that the munitions had a magic altering trait to them. GotMism?
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#8 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:44 PM

View PostXardean, on Mar 5 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

Kinda random but during the fight with Mamoth/Raest (or whatever his name was) he got hit with a moranth munition. And Quick mentioned that the munitions had a magic altering trait to them. GotMism?

Probably not a GotMism, just hasn't come back to haunt us in full force yet. Basically the idea is moranth munitions are mundane, and somehow that makes open warrens/active sorcery draw their explosive force, so a mage with an open warren who would normally be far enough away from a sharper might have the sharper's explosion leak into their warren and explode them, or something. Kinda like Toc's arrows in RG I think...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:44 PM

Quote

Was Raests power in GotM a GotMism? It would make alot of sense for it to be that way, for me atleast. Has anything else i nthe series been so powerful to be able to change bodies with their will and power?


could very well be a GOTMism, but he is not the only player we have seen that seems to be, hate to use this description, but practically "un-killable?"
I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter at the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain...."
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#10 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:51 PM

Yes, Raests power is kind of a GotMism.
Well, kind of.

For example, its hinted that Gothos and Rake could both could take down Raest.

Its more a Gotmism in the sense of how he wields his warren, for example, wielding fire with OP etc. And the power levels of others in that book are odd aswell. Rake seems in some areas underpowered(for example, his convos with Baruk, unless baruk is FAR more powerful than we've seen).

So, Raest is about as powerful as Rake and Gothos.

As for unkillability, no, he's not the only one. However, we see other jaghut killed etc.

However(theory):

The Jaghut don't believe in death as such, more oblivion. That's what happens to their souls. So, strong enough belief/unwillingness to die, as well as power on the level of Gothos and Rake, could easily keep him alive.

Also, no one really tries to kill him the right way. Breaking his arms, skin etc. Shouldn't be what should be attacked. TO kill, you'd need some serious warren attacks, that destroy him properly.

So yes, his unkillability is pretty much a Gotmism, like many things about him, such as his returning to chaos with K'rul. A jaghut tyrant would not come from there, etc.

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#11 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:00 PM

View PostGrief, on Mar 5 2009, 03:51 PM, said:

So yes, his unkillability is pretty much a Gotmism, like many things about him, such as his returning to chaos with K'rul. A jaghut tyrant would not come from there, etc.


But K'rul comes from there, I think it just means he's accompanying K'rul's return, not that Raest is returning to whence he came if he goes there.

There is a sort of link between un-killability and oldenness. The Elder Gods, most especially K'rul and Nightchill are unkillable by any traditional sense and can return after eons in chaos or live on as a fragment of the soul of a mortal and other weird stuff. I guess T&F do the same living through Baaljagg (and Toc?). It is quite possible that someone like Raest has the same dealie, wherein he's just so old that he has a similar attribute to K'rul and doesn't seem to die.

Who knows, this could all link to the whole war-on-death thing too. Somehow...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#12 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:19 PM

I think people are overthinking things in this thread. The key word is "soul" or essence or what ever you want to call that part of the person/creature that remains when the body fails.

The stronger the being becomes, whether they are an ascendant or elder creature of power, the stronger the souls grow. In the case of the strongest ones the soul becomes a threat. The soul can reform a new body, invade other beings forms, unleash power even in an incorporeal form, etc. This is when the soul needs to be chained or otherwise incapacitated.

Jaghuts are the best example of this. Even the kids the T'lan Imass destroyed, breaking all their bones and sealing the corpse under a powerfull ward so that the Jaghut could not rise again. This shouldn't be taken to mean that all Jaghuts are like Raest, merely that there is a danger. Most would simply go into the Abyss (Because the Jaghut don't even believe in their own souls) but some, angry with the T'lan Imass or unable to let go of their loved ones and homes, will linger, like the Jaghut soul that follows the Chain of Dogs on its last trek towards Aren. And being strong beings, these souls could invade other forms and begin making trouble. Like Panion hiding inside the husk of the Seer.

Silchas Ruin would have eventually died from the stabwound if his body failed, but that would have ment that his ascendant soul was free to perhaps take new form, and he could come back for Scabby. That's why Scabby threw him in the Azath.
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#13 User is offline   End of Disc One 

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:38 PM

Raest's power level in GotM was over 9,000, which was impressive, but I'm sure by the end of the series Scillara and Duiker will be at least 250,000,000.
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