[Bauchelain the Evil]

They are the two regulars at Coop who seem to be interested with the Azath seeing how they try to stop the shadow cultist and Temper fromentering the Deadhouse grounds and how they fighted Jenna for a while.But who are they? Agents of the Nameless Ones? Nameless Ones themselves? Someone else?

[Aptorian]

I think it was at least implied, if not clearly stated somewhere, that they were guardians of the Azath. Sort of a kind of groundskeepers that guarded it from the outside while Jhenna held the inside.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well I had thought they were the Guardians but then I somehow understood that Jenna was the Guardian until she tried to escape the Azath with the help of the ShadowMoon and the Stormriders.

[Aptorian]

I made a thread on the subject back in the day when I read the book because I was pretty confused aswell.

Here's the link:

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...showtopic=12307

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Thanks a lot. It has cleared my thoughts a bit.

[Wampyry]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 28 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

They are the two regulars at Coop who seem to be interested with the Azath seeing how they try to stop the shadow cultist and Temper fromentering the Deadhouse grounds and how they fighted Jenna for a while.But who are they? Agents of the Nameless Ones? Nameless Ones themselves? Someone else?

Herewith my take on the mystery:

Shadow Moon Convergence is imminient. The souls of the dead come out under a Shadow Moon, ie. Oleg.
Faro opens his eyes, "The Shadow Moon is risen". Faro and Trenech are Nameless Ones, the pricks
who pop-up everytime Eriks/Mont spread a little viagra mischief around. In this case,
The Nameless Ones job is to prevent any soul from leaving the grounds of the Azath House. They
are not responsible for guarding the House that's Jhenna's job. Jhenna tries to escape, Faro and Trenech are beaten down.
Faro convinces Temper to take on the responsibility of not allowing any of the
bad guys to escape the grounds. Later in a different book, Temper senses someone on the grounds
He leaves the pub to take a look. Shadowthrone sees him, and without Cotillion, discretion is the
better part of valor. Shadowthrone hobbles away.
Temper is not the guardian of the House. He has a part-time job of keeping everything in there.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 14 April 2009 - 05:35 PM

[The Crow]

As I've understood it, there are both Gatekeepers and Guardians of the Azath houses. Gatekeepers are outside, Guardians are inside, and the Guardians are often beings who were first trapped by the Azath.

Midnight Tides spoiler:

Spoiler

I guess, if you draw a parallel to Letheras, Kettle would be the Gatekeeper, and Mr. I-Speak-In-Peoples-Heads would be the Guardian.

Of course, the Azath stuff is all still just a huge question mark, so it's hard to tell for sure.
Maybe it just improvises. You know, supply and demand.

[Silent]

 The Crow, on Jun 20 2009, 10:44 PM, said:

Maybe it just improvises. You know, supply and demand.

That is basically how I saw it. The Azath really don't seem to have any kind of structure to their defenses. The houses do seem to have internal guardians

Spoiler

Moby for Tremerlor, Raest for Finnest House

, and now Jhenna for the Deadhouse, but this doesn't seem to be the case with the tower in MT.

A couple side notes: before NoK, I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse. That's probably just a misunderstanding on my part though. Second, in TtH,

Spoiler

what does that make Vorcan and Rallick? Are they now external guardians for the Finnest House like Faro and Treneg are for the Deadhouse? (if they are, indeed, external guardians)

Sorry if anything that needs to be a spoiler isn't, I'm not really sure what constitutes a spoiler in the NoK forum is.

[Wampyry]

Quote

Silent @ june 25, 2009 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse.

Spoiler

He is in DG.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 07 July 2009 - 04:41 PM

[D'rek]

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Quote

Silent @ june 25, 2009 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse.

Spoiler

He is in DG.

Just because he was sitting in a chair inside of it does not mean that he was the Guardian. If Gothos had left, but Fiddler had stayed and taken a seat, another random person passing through would no doubt assume Fiddler was the Guardian, but in both cases it was and would still be Temper.

[Wampyry]

 D'rek, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Quote

Silent @ june 25, 2009 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse.

Spoiler

He is in DG.

Just because he was sitting in a chair inside of it does not mean that he was the Guardian. If Gothos had left, but Fiddler had stayed and taken a seat, another random person passing through would no doubt assume Fiddler was the Guardian, but in both cases it was and would still be Temper.

Thiink you're reaching, D'reck. "Just because" That same argument can be used in many places. Sure You know Temper is not the guardian of the Deadhouse or any other Azath.

[D'rek]

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 11:27 PM, said:

 D'rek, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Quote

Silent @ june 25, 2009 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse.

Spoiler

He is in DG.

Just because he was sitting in a chair inside of it does not mean that he was the Guardian. If Gothos had left, but Fiddler had stayed and taken a seat, another random person passing through would no doubt assume Fiddler was the Guardian, but in both cases it was and would still be Temper.

Thiink you're reaching, D'reck. "Just because" That same argument can be used in many places. Sure You know Temper is not the guardian of the Deadhouse or any other Azath.

Yes, that argument can be used in many places. Doesn't mean it doesn't work. Face it, there's no reason to believe Gothos is the/a Guardian of the Deadhouse. He doesn't do anything guardian-like, and its not as if there's a shortage of non-Guardian people somewhere in the Azaths {ST and Cotillion have access, Vorcan, Rallick, Dassem's daughter, Fiddler, Apsalar, Rellock, Mappo, Icarium, Iskaral Pust, three maroon dragons, Paran,

Spoiler

Kalam

(BH),

Spoiler

Bruthen Trana, Knuckles, Killy

(RG),

Spoiler

Picker, Chaur

(TtH) }. If Gothos happens to be lounging in a chair that's great, but for lack of any other evidence, why believe he's the/a Guardian when we know Temper is already doing it?

The easiest explanation is that Jhenna was the Guardian and Temper is now. Gothos was just chillin'. Faro and Treneg were residents of Malaz, NOs or mysteriously employed by the Azath, it doesn't really matter. They knew the Guardian was trying to escape the Azath, which she could do while it was under assault from the Cultists, Claw and whomever else, so they set themselves to stopping Jhenna from getting out.

[Wampyry]

 D'rek, on Jul 8 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 11:27 PM, said:

 D'rek, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

 Wampyry, on Jul 7 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Quote

Silent @ june 25, 2009 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that Gothos was the guardian of the Deadhouse.

Spoiler

He is in DG.

Just because he was sitting in a chair inside of it does not mean that he was the Guardian. If Gothos had left, but Fiddler had stayed and taken a seat, another random person passing through would no doubt assume Fiddler was the Guardian, but in both cases it was and would still be Temper.

Thiink you're reaching, D'reck. "Just because" That same argument can be used in many places. Sure You know Temper is not the guardian of the Deadhouse or any other Azath.

Yes, that argument can be used in many places. Doesn't mean it doesn't work. Face it, there's no reason to believe Gothos is the/a Guardian of the Deadhouse. He doesn't do anything guardian-like, and its not as if there's a shortage of non-Guardian people somewhere in the Azaths {ST and Cotillion have access, Vorcan, Rallick, Dassem's daughter, Fiddler, Apsalar, Rellock, Mappo, Icarium, Iskaral Pust, three maroon dragons, Paran,

Spoiler

Kalam

(BH),

Spoiler

Bruthen Trana, Knuckles, Killy

(RG),

Spoiler

Picker, Chaur

(TtH) }. If Gothos happens to be lounging in a chair that's great, but for lack of any other evidence, why believe he's the/a Guardian when we know Temper is already doing it?

The easiest explanation is that Jhenna was the Guardian and Temper is now. Gothos was just chillin'. Faro and Treneg were residents of Malaz, NOs or mysteriously employed by the Azath, it doesn't really matter. They knew the Guardian was trying to escape the Azath, which she could do while it was under assault from the Cultists, Claw and whomever else, so they set themselves to stopping Jhenna from getting out.

D'rek, we seem to be at an impasse. Bottleneck is Temper. You feel he is the Guardian whereas, I feel he is taking the NO responsibilty of keeping the bad guys on the Azath grounds. Hopefully, time will tell.

Spoiler

Either Temper will fight some bad guys on the grounds or one of the authors will explain what Gothos was doing in Deadhouse - like roving Guardian until a suitable Guardian can be found. Hell, maybe we'll never know.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 08 July 2009 - 04:19 PM

[Abyss]

Gothos was in Tremolor, not the Deadhouse. His role with the Azath seems to be more than 'just' a Guardian, but in DG Fid and co meet Gothos when they enter Tremolor, THEN they travel to the Deadhouse. NoK takes place before DG, and as far as we know, Temper is still guardian, but he doesn't show up when Fid and co arrive and in any event, it seems Guardian's protect the Azath from exterior threats, not travellers passing thru from the inside.

Faro and Treneg were outside of the Azath. They tried to prevent Jhenna's escape. Jhenna was inside and was in service to the Azath as 'Guardian' like Moby and Raest, except she sought to use the Shadow Moon to break free. Faro and Treneg were there to stop that. It's not explicitly stated, but they act like Nameless Ones, and their lack of access to the Azath supports this.

When Temper steps in to oppose Jhenna, someone tells him to 'accept the Guardianship' (quote from memory, may not be accurate, i think it was Faro). Temper does, and this seems to give him a power-up against Jhenna, who had foresaken the role by then.

SPOILERS
SPOILERS THE BONEHUNTERS SPOILERS
SPOILERS

Spoiler

In TB we see Temper step out of the Deadhouse and recover Kalam. Point being, Temper was INSIDE the Azath and stepped out, hence, he is acting as a guardian, or servant, of the Azath, but he has sufficient freedown that he can come and go as he pleases, hence why we see him in Coop's bar and in RCG campaigning with the Malazan army on Quon Tali.

SPOILERS
RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD SPOILERS
SPOILERS...

Spoiler

We don't know whether Temper retains the 'power-up' from being a Guardian in RCG, since, as we see when he fights Surger, he was always a tough bastard and likely would have faced Skinner and his Avowed with or without.

Anyhoo, that's how i understood it.

- Abyss, could say the Azath has a Temper...

[Wampyry]

Fiddler and company leave Tremolor and travel to Deadhouse. There they meet Gothos.

Spoiler

DG 665 - 666

When Temper accepted the Guardianship from Faro, what did that guardianship entail? I believe it was only to keep anyone from leaving the grounds. NOK 380. Faro to Temper as Temper entered the grounds, "Soldier, you entered of your own free will. I am sorry, but we cannot allow anyone to leave the grounds. You made the choice."

To me, this means that the NO job was to guard the gate - not the grounds nor the House.

[D'rek]

 Wampyry, on Jul 8 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

D'rek, we seem to be at an impasse. Bottleneck is Temper. You feel he is the Guardian whereas, I feel he is taking the NO responsibilty of keeping the bad guys on the Azath grounds. Hopefully, time will tell. Either Temper will fight some bad guys on the grounds or one of the authors will explain what Gothos was doing in Deadhouse - like roving Guardian until a suitable Guardian can be found. Hell, maybe we'll never know.

You need to read TtH, it would provide some marginal evidence towards one of the issues for debate here. But it's not overly important.

I'll agree that Temper's role as we see it in tBH is closer to what Faro and Treneg are doing, but I believe that some freedom is afforded the Guardians if they volunteered for the job and have little likelihood of running off. Temper took the job by choice so he can sleep and drink in Coop's, which is practically across the street anyways. It's not so dissimilar from Kettle,

Spoiler

who spends most of her time outside the Azath itself, though in the grounds, but also runs amok in the city killing the Tehol's stalkers and anyone else Shurq tells her too

. A Guardian that is forced to work because it was taken forcefully by the Azath, though, would not be allowed these freedoms - Raest is a good example, and I believe Jhenna would match this. As we see with Jhenna, these Guardians want to escape the Azath and are strong enough to do it if it is weakened.

 Abyss, on Jul 8 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

Gothos was in Tremolor, not the Deadhouse. His role with the Azath seems to be more than 'just' a Guardian, but in DG Fid and co meet Gothos when they enter Tremolor, THEN they travel to the Deadhouse. NoK takes place before DG, and as far as we know, Temper is still guardian, but he doesn't show up when Fid and co arrive and in any event, it seems Guardian's protect the Azath from exterior threats, not travellers passing thru from the inside.

As Wampyry said, you're off on the timeline. I suspect you're right on the threats-assessment business, because the Azaths are linked anyway so allowance into Tremorlor probably meant there should be no qualms at the Deadhouse.

 Abyss, on Jul 8 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

When Temper steps in to oppose Jhenna, someone tells him to 'accept the Guardianship' (quote from memory, may not be accurate, i think it was Faro). Temper does, and this seems to give him a power-up against Jhenna, who had foresaken the role by then.

Might be good if someone can check up on that quote if they actually use the word Guardianship, but I suppose its debatable as a general term anyways.

The power-up/patronage almost certainly comes from the Azath (where the heck else would it come from?) so I believe this is solid evidence that he is the Guardian. it seems unlikely to me that the NOs as a whole could just give patronage to a random dude who is sort of on their side, and Faro really wasn't in any shape to do it if you ask me.

 Abyss, on Jul 8 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

Spoiler

In TB we see Temper step out of the Deadhouse and recover Kalam. Point being, Temper was INSIDE the Azath and stepped out, hence, he is acting as a guardian, or servant, of the Azath, but he has sufficient freedown that he can come and go as he pleases, hence why we see him in Coop's bar and in RCG campaigning with the Malazan army on Quon Tali.

...and then he suddenly teleports to Coop's Inn and steps out of that half a second later?

It's been debated before without any consensus that I recall, but I still believe that the armored figure

Spoiler

that picks up Kalam

is the suit of armor that stands in the hallway of each of the Azaths and is just an automaton or avatar controlled by the Azath, not actually a person if you will. Besides, I think the armor description is a bit different from Temper's usual.

 Wampyry, on Jul 8 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

When Temper accepted the Guardianship from Faro, what did that guardianship entail? I believe it was only to keep anyone from leaving the grounds. NOK 380. Faro to Temper as Temper entered the grounds, "Soldier, you entered of your own free will. I am sorry, but we cannot allow anyone to leave the grounds. You made the choice."

To me, this means that the NO job was to guard the gate - not the grounds nor the House.

NOs, island mystics or just old doddering weirdos, Faro & Treneg's objective was to keep Jhenna from escaping, and given how Raest could switch into Mammot's body, I'm not surprised they'd want to keep anyone from leaving the grounds. The choice of entering the grounds is the only one I think he's referring to there, as the "accept the task/role/job/Guardianship" bit comes later, doesn't it?

[ansible]

Night of Knives, US Tor paperback, p. 246 said:

Tayschrenn waved a hand as if to say that was all behind them now. 'I'm going to see if the Guardian will speak to me, then we'll return to Mock's Hold. You should accompany us.'

[...]

Tayschrenn straightened from Hattar's grip and, leaving him behind, continued unsteadily on to the gate. He stopped a respectful distance from the old man [Faro] and addressed him. Kiska was too far away to hear much. The old man replied curtly. His gaze didn't waver from the armoured giant who stood like a statue of solid bronze just inside the open gate.

Emphasis mine. Tays clearly refers to Faro as the Guardian, though I suppose he could simply be wrong.

Night of Knives, US Tor paperback, p. 250-251 said:

'Step into the gap, soldier,' came a breathless call, as if the ground itself spoke. 'Accept the burden.'

'What of the fires?'

Horribly, the figure raised a blackened and charred forearm, entreating. 'Receive the Guardianship!'

[...]

'I accept,' he answered, as if that were the only response he was capable of, as if this alone was what had drawn him to the island in the first place.

[...]

'What of those flames?' No answer came. He looked down. The corpse lay motionless. Temper sensed that whatever had held Faro together had fled.

This seems to strengthen the argument. Faro is killed, so there is a "gap" that needs to be filled, which Temper does by accepting "the Guardianship." This happens after Jhenna emerges from the Azath and Temper is trapped inside the grounds, so if Jhenna was the Guardian and she somehow renounced that position during the Shadow Moon, this should have occurred before or at least in conjunction with her escape attempt. Instead, the "gap" only needs to be filled once Faro dies.

While Faro is still the Guardian, his corpse is able to speak to Temper. When Temper accepts, the Guardianship transfers from Faro, which is why he becomes just a corpse and has no more power.

[edit]Also, after becoming the Guardian, Temper is free to wander around outside the Azath, much as Faro was, unlike Jhenna. Temper's current "position" resembles Faro's much more than Jhenna's.[/edit]

This post has been edited by ansible: 21 February 2010 - 08:17 AM