Malazan Empire: weakest moments - Malazan Empire

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#21 User is offline   Xardean 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 08:42 PM

I kinda liked Dejim Nebral (sp?) it was a good testament that the old is overshadowed by the new, also shown with Karsa owning two Deragoth.
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#22 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 09:07 PM

Harllo was HOW old???

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#23 User is offline   Kalahinen 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:19 PM

View Postfoolio, on Feb 23 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

2/Orfantals effortless death


I don't agree. Orfantal died because he underestimated Kallor. This way Erikson showed that Kallor really qualifies among the really powerful characters. His reputation is earned. After MoI everyone expected him to die in the next battle, whether it be against a couple of Malazan marines or Korlat/Orfantal. He was slapped by Whiskeyjack, threatened by Orfantal, Brood, Rake etc. In TtH SE told a different story.

The most disappointing thing for me is probably the fact that Moranth munitions lasted to the end of Reaper's Gale.
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#24 User is offline   Toc 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:40 PM

1. I found the whole Karsa-build-up-story way to long, and a bit boring.
2. When Brys died of a sip of wine I thought that was the weakest moment in the series, but I think that it was planned so that he could ascend in some way.
3. With the exception of point 2 I find it very annoying that a lot of people don't stay dead. Seems like everyone comes back in some new form.
4. So, with point 3 in mind, I think a really weak point in the series is Baudin becoming the knight/soldier of death. I found it very irrational.
5. Trull becoming the knight of shadow, only to be knifed in the back. Wouldn't have been as bad if he'd still been the old, regular Trull. Kinda lost my faith in Shadowthrone on that one. (Well okey, maybe I didn't.. but still..)
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#25 User is offline   Fox 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:58 PM

I was so pissed when Trull was killed, he was probably my favorite character, but I don't know if I'd call his death a weak moment.


I was not a fan of the Thordy (was that the name of the fingerless murderer?) storyline, or Seerdomin/Redeemer vs. priestess girl.
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#26 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:27 AM

This won't sound right, but the way Black Coral came under siege so quickly after Rake left. I mean, Silanah was there. I can't believe the DG just strolled in and the Tiste Andii are on their knees.

Seerdomin's death annoyed me a bit, but he wasn't out of the picture so it's cool.
Suck it Errant!


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QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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#27 User is offline   Cowl's Disciple 

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 02:05 AM

I'd go with the ending of RG for weakest moment(s). Weakest storyline for me is pretty much any involving Kruppe in a significant way post GotM.
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#28 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 12:23 PM

How can you not enjoy kruppe? He is brilliant!
Have to agree with AIJ, silanah is a purebred dragon, should be able to take care of some wimsy little godfigure

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#29 User is offline   Xardean 

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 08:43 PM

Right when i started to really like Trull he died.... wow...... I wanted to go on a murderous rampage, starting with the Errant..
theres a weak point, the Errant is still alive.
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#30 User is offline   Cowl's Disciple 

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  Posted 28 February 2009 - 01:12 AM

View PostSindriss, on Feb 26 2009, 10:23 PM, said:

How can you not enjoy kruppe? He is brilliant!
Have to agree with AIJ, silanah is a purebred dragon, should be able to take care of some wimsy little godfigure


I didn't mind him in GotM, but ever since I'm just tired of him. He's fat & covered in food but also a brilliant ally/tool of an elder god, WE GET IT! His dialog is not funny or clever and just waffles on and on (yes I know that's part of Kruppe's character, he rambles, but the rambling isn't written well enough to enjoy it for that). For example Iskaral Pust does a similar thing but he's far more enjoyable.

I also hate Kruppe because SE seems to, especially in TtH, use him as a narrator/cipher for his own views on life and the story itself and it's boring. Now I need to stop talking about it because I'm beginning to rage!


Also, I agree with the Silanah comment :whistle:

This post has been edited by Cowl's Disciple: 28 February 2009 - 01:13 AM

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#31 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 05:22 AM

However, Rake said something to her before he left. Maybe she was in the know with the whole Dragnipur plan and only acted when she was sure Rake was gone. Yeah, I'm practically contradicting myself but it's just so we don't all get the wrong idea.

I was also a bit irritated in BH when the Perish joined the 14th. All they (the MS, Destriant, and SA) did was come aborad and suddenly swear undying fealty. Seemed a bit sudden, if you ask me.
Suck it Errant!


"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and I'm all out of gum."

QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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#32 User is offline   Jumpy 

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 10:57 PM

Trull's death was so weak and unnecessary.

Anything involving the Redeemer was really, really weak. I mean, come on! Leave Itkovian alone, already. He was cool, in MoI. Past that? Enough is enough. It just felt like filler material. Same with the Skullcrusher and his fanatical, blood drinking worshippers. I guess it was a way to get Nimander & Co. to Black Coral, but seriously? So, so, so annoying. I did smile when they killed hundreds of those freaks, though.

Lorn getting killed was bad for me, too. I liked her.

And I hate the Errant. So much.
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#33 User is offline   Richard 

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:09 AM

Reading this thread has been a bit of an eye openner for me. So many irrate readers.

I don't regard any significant moments from Eriksons book to have weak elements, although I may not like some of them. Esslemonts are a different matter as I found almost nothing I enjoyed from Night of knives except the whole path to ascension idea we saw in Deadhouse gates. Another path and one that explains both why Shadowthrones deception took the form it did and why so many beings fell for it. What let down Night of knives for me was a complete lack of any character I could enjoy following. Return of the crimson guard is better so long as it's using character I'm completely unfamiliar with or have no history in Eriksons books. The clash of portrayal grates just too much for me. (Laseen being a major case in point.)

Of the things I don't like in the series are probably Karsa, there's no point explaining further as my dislike is a bit irrational but I hate him. Kruppe has changed becoming far more withdrawn and that just feels awful considering his meddling. It's a sad but repetitive theme where those who can do something slowly stop because they have lost the drive to do so. The same can be said of many of the characters in Toll the hounds and earlier in Midnight Tides. The final book of Reapers gale rankled for the abandonment of Rhulad as a character of any worth. Erikson just stopped writing about him as a proper character. One of the clear observations in Midnight Tides is how his skill improves with each death and that he becomes ever harder to face yet every fight in Reaper's gale he has depicts his opponents as eventually giving in to the horror an opponent that just won't stay dead. No detail of any skill or prowess from either side, just that Rhulud will die until his foe loses the will to fight on. It didn't sit well with me the first time I read or the second (I've to attempt a 3rd). I can see some reason behind it but it jars considering the detail in which Erikson studies his wretched and selfish plight for acknowledgement in Midnight Tides.
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#34 User is offline   Onos 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:49 PM

View PostCowl's Disciple, on Feb 27 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

View PostSindriss, on Feb 26 2009, 10:23 PM, said:

How can you not enjoy kruppe? He is brilliant!
Have to agree with AIJ, silanah is a purebred dragon, should be able to take care of some wimsy little godfigure


I didn't mind him in GotM, but ever since I'm just tired of him. He's fat & covered in food but also a brilliant ally/tool of an elder god, WE GET IT! His dialog is not funny or clever and just waffles on and on (yes I know that's part of Kruppe's character, he rambles, but the rambling isn't written well enough to enjoy it for that). For example Iskaral Pust does a similar thing but he's far more enjoyable.

I also hate Kruppe because SE seems to, especially in TtH, use him as a narrator/cipher for his own views on life and the story itself and it's boring. Now I need to stop talking about it because I'm beginning to rage!





I agree with this post. That is a pretty good summary. Krupp is fine, but nothing special IMO. And i usually just skim him speaking. Sometimes when he is chatting i start to wonder if the ox has something more relevant to say... Kruppe always comes out on top... so it would be extremely funny if something happened to him... "Kruppe after single handedly defeating the Crippled God, walks back to the bar for wine. On his way he has a heart attack and falls over dead". Or perhaps some nobody surprising him and doing him in.
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#35 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 02:37 PM

Richard said

Quote

What let down Night of knives for me was a complete lack of any character I could enjoy following. Return of the crimson guard is better so long as it's using character I'm completely unfamiliar with or have no history in Eriksons books. The clash of portrayal grates just too much for me. (Laseen being a major case in point.)

Of the things I don't like in the series are probably Karsa, there's no point explaining further as my dislike is a bit irrational but I hate him.


I agree whole heartedly with all of this. I cant really explain my hatred of Karsa that well but I will try. I think, to me, Karsa seems like an authors mastubation. He just seems like an unstoppable force that humbles all those around him. I guess Rake is kind of like this but for whatever reason I really liked Rake but hate Karsa. I know this is irrational, but thats the way I see it.

This post has been edited by foolio: 12 March 2009 - 02:50 PM

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#36 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 05:37 PM

View Postfoolio, on Mar 12 2009, 09:37 AM, said:

Richard said

Quote

What let down Night of knives for me was a complete lack of any character I could enjoy following. Return of the crimson guard is better so long as it's using character I'm completely unfamiliar with or have no history in Eriksons books. The clash of portrayal grates just too much for me. (Laseen being a major case in point.)

Of the things I don't like in the series are probably Karsa, there's no point explaining further as my dislike is a bit irrational but I hate him.


I agree whole heartedly with all of this. I cant really explain my hatred of Karsa that well but I will try. I think, to me, Karsa seems like an authors mastubation. He just seems like an unstoppable force that humbles all those around him. I guess Rake is kind of like this but for whatever reason I really liked Rake but hate Karsa. I know this is irrational, but thats the way I see it.

thats cuz while rake and karse are both humbling, only rake is humble
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#37 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 05:48 PM

Karsa is a repellant creature who's destiny is to lead an invasion to destroy civilization. A man who believes in nothing but the certainty of his mission. Lest we forget Erikson is not a fan of certainty.
No matter how many good deeds Karsa does (stopping Rhulad etc), his ultimate aim is no better than what the Pannion Domin brought to the table. And if he wins and destroys everything, will he then police the world, to make sure that none of the survivors get above their station by attempting to rebuild bits of civilization? Sounds like tyranny to me.
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#38 User is offline   Daemon_Monkey 

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 06:42 PM

I've not done a second read through of TTH yet but I seem to remember that karsa's wish to destroy civilization has been put on hold, at least temporarily. That said, I still hate the bastard, though much less than I did
To me though, the weakest moments come from all the depressed/nihlist/Worn Down characters. Every time I see Heboric and Felisin (both of them) Scillara etc I just want them all to die as quickly as possible, their sections are simply not enjoyable to read and Heboric especially seems to just repeat the same depressing mantra over and over again. Those bastards basically make it hard for me to reread DHG and HOC despite the brilliancy of the rest of the stories
That said, most of these characters seem to be dying off anyway so maybe by the time we get to TCG I will be surrounded by people I actually enjoy reading about
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#39 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:57 AM

I was really looking forward to the 14th-Rebels fight at the end of HoC. The ghosts coming were awesome, but still.
Suck it Errant!


"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and I'm all out of gum."

QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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#40 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 03:38 PM

I felt, overall, Toll the Hounds was the weakest book. Certainly, the most disappointing and least enjoyable to me. That's not saying that there weren't some awesome parts to it, but they felt too few and far between. Regarding specific points, three jump out at me immediately from this book:

- The Dying God being Bellurdan. Just didn't ring true, and why suddenly give this very minor character from seven books ago a huge role now? Why not just keep it simple and make Hairlock the Dying God if one was needed?

- Itkovian's Redeemer role was badly explained and only half-reasoned out.

- The Rake/Dassem clash. Not saying that the fight itself wasn't great, but the reasons behind it - or lack thereof - really grated on me. Making two characters fight 'just coz its cool' is not a good enough reason for me. From Erikson, I have come to expect fantastic plotting and subtle reasoning, and there was neither in that scene.




A side-note: I see a lot of people harping on about the change in Laseen's character. That's one thing I have to disagree with (I agree with a lot of other things said about ICE's writing) but I never, never, got the sense that Laseen didn't have another plan beneath what we saw on the surface. There are so many hints throughout SE's books that Laseen is far more than she seems - someone who does all she can to not display her power openly. This is clearly evidenced in her very appearance, plain, modestly dressed, etc., even though she's the Empress.
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