[Old Hunch Arbat]

In the first chapter we read of Graymane being covered by ice as he leaves Shen's tower. Throughout RotCG his eyes are referred to as "ice-blue" and his gaze as "glacial." Omtose Phellack anyone?

OHA

[L'oric]

Old Hunch Arbat, on Feb 14 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

In the first chapter we read of Graymane being covered by ice as he leaves Shen's tower. Throughout RotCG his eyes are referred to as "ice-blue" and his gaze as "glacial." Omtose Phellack anyone?

OHA

Omtose Phellack gbeing unveiled in Burn from Memories of Ice? Just a guess. I thought the Ice at the start came from Serc.

Sincerely
L'oric

[Old Hunch Arbat]

L'oric, on Feb 14 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

Old Hunch Arbat, on Feb 14 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

In the first chapter we read of Graymane being covered by ice as he leaves Shen's tower. Throughout RotCG his eyes are referred to as "ice-blue" and his gaze as "glacial." Omtose Phellack anyone?

OHA

Omtose Phellack gbeing unveiled in Burn from Memories of Ice? Just a guess. I thought the Ice at the start came from Serc.

Sincerely
L'oric

I suppose it could be from Serc - I'm not exactly aware of Serc's qualities/attributes. I'm just intrigued by the continued references to "ice" and things "ice-like" when Graymane is described.

OHA

[Cowl's Disciple]

Could just be a character point when it comes to the ice blue eyes.

[Aptorian]

Greymane is burns tool/servant, nothing connects him with Omotose. The ice on his shoulders is generated by the magic of Shen/Osserc. Descriptions like glacial stare, etc. are just that, descriptions. It implies that Greymane shows no emotion or doesn't care for what other object/person appears in that scene.

[Sinisdar Toste]

although as a servant of burn he may now be a guardian of the last remnant of omtose

[Tapper]

Aptorian, on Feb 15 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

Greymane is burns tool/servant, nothing connects him with Omotose. The ice on his shoulders is generated by the magic of Shen/Osserc. Descriptions like glacial stare, etc. are just that, descriptions. It implies that Greymane shows no emotion or doesn't care for what other object/person appears in that scene.

Not exactly - if he is connected to Burn, then it might well reflect in a sort of inner power thing. Isn't Omtose Phellack after all hosted by Burn, courtesy of Quick Ben?

It is very, very farfetched, though

[Tapper]

Sinisdar Toste, on Feb 20 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

although as a servant of burn he may now be a guardian of the last remnant of omtose

Damn, you beat me to it

[sqeekypotato]

Did I miss something? Where does it say that Greymane is a servant to Burn. I got the sneaking feeling that Greymane was the first sword of omtose. That is why he didn't want to use his "big sword" around Burn's temple. The drawing of power to power and all that.

[Aptorian]

In the end pf the book he's staying in Burns temple so that should tell you something.

[dawnkiller]

Aptorian, on Apr 7 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

In the end pf the book he's staying in Burns temple so that should tell you something.

He also hesitates to use his sword so near Burn's temple (alas I am bookless and have no page to give) because he's afraid of what might happen, which indicates to me it may have capabilities similar to Brood's hammer (said to possess the potential to awaken Burn). Also, I believe he states early on during the marine assault that he doesn't get along with water -- either because he wears big honking metal bands or because of some elemental opposite deal, depending on your theory preferences.

[Aptorian]

It's of course something to do with his nature. I think it's the same thing that lets him withstand Shen/Ossercs ice blast, and stand with no need for support on the deck of the ship.

[dawnkiller]

Aptorian, on Apr 7 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

It's of course something to do with his nature. I think it's the same thing that lets him withstand Shen/Ossercs ice blast, and stand with no need for support on the deck of the ship.

Yeah, the way he stood on the ship made me think that Greymane's only real maritime use would be as an emergancy anchor.

(We know they have sea legs . . . I wonder if Ruse mages are bouyant.)

[sqeekypotato]

I still think that he is ice aspected. It is not only because he is covered in ice after the battle in the beginning of the book, he also mentions that he doesn't feel the cold when the CG are preparing to swim out and attack the ships, he is also saluted by the creatures who's names I cannot remember right now but are always attacking the stormwall who are obviously ice aspected. Someone also mentions that all the iceburgs that are coming towards the stormwall are a result of the highest form of ice sorcery that the Jaghut performed which I think have something to do with the ice riders. Also, so far there have been no holds/warrens/whatevers that have more than one moral sword or more than one seriously aspected weapon that I can remember. It would seem a little wierd that Burn's would have two. His staying in Burn's sanctuary could have been due to the fact that it was close and provided shelter from everyone looking for him, and as I said before, his lack of desire to unleash his big sword on Skinner could be due to it being aspected to Burn or it could be due to it being non-aspected to Burn and it was powerful enough to cause some sort of responce from the temple. It has been a big theme through all these books that power draws power. Sort of like saying there might be some sort of unkown reaction if you opened the warren of Dark in a temple of light, it would be wise to be a bit hesitant.

[Grief]

Remember the witch of Burn QB meets?
She prefers the cold, it's one of the things that makes QB realise what she is.

Also, there are examples of more than one aspected thing. Oppon, the coin, and the sword, for one, not both weapons, but still.

They saltue him, yes, but that could easily be just a mark of respect, if they've met before, or heard of him, which isn't massively unlikely.

[dawnkiller]

Grief, on Apr 7 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

They saltue him, yes, but that could easily be just a mark of respect, if they've met before, or heard of him, which isn't massively unlikely.

I also thought it was a respect thing because he was some kind of Champion of Burn's. It might be especially true of a Burn-aspected person than any other. Ice/glaciers do shape earth, and earth reclaims the sea (Ruraku is stated to have been a sea once), so they have a natural interchange -- as opposed to the Thyr/Tellan warrens, which were in direct conflict with Omotose Phellack, hence some of the friction between the Imass and Jaghut.

[sqeekypotato]

Grief, on Apr 7 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

Remember the witch of Burn QB meets?
She prefers the cold, it's one of the things that makes QB realise what she is.

Also, there are examples of more than one aspected thing. Oppon, the coin, and the sword, for one, not both weapons, but still.

They saltue him, yes, but that could easily be just a mark of respect, if they've met before, or heard of him, which isn't massively unlikely.

I always figured she mentioned the cold thing to Quick Ben because that is what he needed to do in order to slow the infestation of Burn from the Crippled God. I haven't read that book in a while but I seem to remember that Quick went there specifically because she was a witch of burn, that is why he was talking to her. In my post I sort of made a mistake, odds are the storm riders were saluting Kyle, because Kyle saluted them. However Greymane said that they weren't saluting him because he told them to stop a long time ago so he has probably had a lot of contact with them in the past. I'm not saying that I am 100% right but I would lay money on him being ice aspected and not earth aspected. His back story has to do with the Storm riders, who he tried to make peace with, who have something to do with a Jaghut ritual, and now he has some crazy sword, can't feel cold, figures he is good enough to beat Skinner with his big sword and also figures he is more than a match for Orko.

[Aptorian]

But why would you automatically assume that it is Ice that is his aspect, when all you have is a layer of ice on his pauldrons that Shen generated? There so many other things, namely the burn aspected sword, that suggests that he's connected to stone and earth.

[sqeekypotato]

This is what I am trying to figure out. Where does it say that his sword is aspected to Burn? From what I have read in the posts, people are drawing that from his reluctance to use it around Burn's temple and I think that could be due to many other things.

His being aspected to ice has more mentions than just the beginning of the book where he is covered in it. I mentioned a few other points that it comes up in an earlier post and those were just a few that I came up with off the top of my head. Unless I'm missing something I think there is more evidence towards ice than there is towards Burn

Also, there was no direct statement that Shen caused the ice. If 'mane had to use his full power to deal with Shen then the ice could have come from that, the same way members of the Claw are wrapped in Shadows when they call on that warren. I can see how the ice could have possible come from Shen, I'm just saying it is not a sure thing.

This post has been edited by sqeekypotato: 07 April 2009 - 08:24 PM

[dawnkiller]

Okay, home with my book now so I can start pulling passages. I apologize, this is going to be quotetastic. First, the incident where Greymane is batting at icicles:

Quote

Greymane brought up the rear, walking slowly and heavily as if deep in thought. Not once did he look behind. Oddly, wind-lashed mist plumed from the man like a banner.
The men reached the cover of the colonnade. As Greymane emerged from the curtain of rain Kyle saw that a layer of ice covered the man -- icicles hung from the skirts of his hanging scaled armour. The Malazan renegade slapped at the ice, sending shards tinkling to the stone floor. Vapour curled from him like smoke. -- p.20

The encounter with the Riders:

Quote

Through the spray he could make out a number of Riders circling the ship. While he watched, incredulous, the ones nearest the Kestral saluted the vessel with upraised lances and submerged. More surged abreast of his vessel. One broached the waters close by and seemed to be watching him. But as the tall helm hid the being's eyes, Kyle couldn't be sure. On impulse he drew his tulwar and raised it straight up before his face, saluting the Rider. The alien entity straightened and raised his lance, its barbed point flashing cruelly. Kyle laughed his palpable relief and sheathed his sword. Tolt was right, it seemed to him -- if it had come to a fight they wouldn't have stood a chance.
"The Rider saluted you."
Kyle turned. There stood Greymane, the only person fully armoured in banded iron, his legs planted wide apart, yet steadying himself at a guide-rope. Kyle remembered the Malazan renegade's words in Kurzan: "water'n'me, we don't get along. The veteran's eyes held a calculation Kyle had never seen before. "Or he was saluting you."
A tight sardonic smile reached the man's sky-pale eyes. "No. I told them to cut that out way long ago." --p.87-88

So it seems Greymane wasn't saluted in this case (rather, it appears to be Kyle's sword/Osserc they're saluting), but nonetheless he had been in the past. When Kyle asks him if he's been here before, and regarding why he doesn't like the sea, Greymane offers this:

Quote

"Aye. Many times. I grew up on Geni-- an island south of Quon. My father fished the Cut. Saw them many times I did, as a boy. Before my father went out and never came back. Taken by them, some said. I swore off the sea then. Joined the army. . . . Command thought my familiarity with the Cut would be an asset for the Korel invasion. And for a time they were right. But as the years passed the stalemate drove me to try something no one had ever tried . . ."
The last of the Riders disappeared in swirls of pale emerald froth. Kyle shivered. Despite himself, he turned. "What? What did you do?"
The renegade was frowning, his pale gaze fixed on the waters. He wiped the spray from his face then made a gesture as if throwing something away. "Well, let's just say it lit a fire under the Korelri like nothing else ever before and got me arrested by command. I made a mistake -- misjudged the situation -- and a lot of people got killed that didn't have to."
"I'm sorry."
"Yeah, so was I. But I accept it. Now I'm just plain fed up." A crooked smile, the eyes bright as the ice that clings to the mountaintops in the north of Kyle's homeland. Or these Rider's own glimmering armor. --p.88-89

So there's the ice-connection that sqeeky was talking about, and I think this actually raises more questions than it answer. I'm actually starting to wonder if we aren't all wrong. ~.^

Regarding the Rider's territory, on p.87 the savage currents are mentioned, but also "unpredictable storms". And going back a few pages to the fight at the Spur, there's this convo between Stoop and Kyle:

Quote

"Now, power is power. We knew this warlock, Shen, was no way potent enough to whip up this sort of storm. Why, the entire weather of this subcontinent is affected. Your own plains are dry because all the rains that are drawn here to run off to the eastern coast. We'd hoped it was something we could us in our war against the damned Malazans. But, as you saw, it was some blasted dreaming magus."
"Dreaming?"
"Yes. Cowl says that all this -- the storm -- was summoned up and sustained just by his dreaming." -- p.27

So . . . why does ice necessarily mean Greymane -- or the Riders -- are aspected to the (dying) Jaghut warren of Omotose Phellack? L'oric could be right, the ice could have been Serc -- just not in a way we were thinking. Serc is a weather-oriented warren, so that encompases heat, cold, ice, water, lightning, wind and calm. As far as I remember we haven't seen a whole lot of Serc-users in Erikson's books, just like he's been a bit scant on details about the Queen of Dreams, the Crimson Guard, or the Tiste Liosan, so I suspect this might actually be one of Esslemont's speciality areas. And even though my head will explode if I have to go back and find them again, I'm pretty sure there are just as many references to Greymane's eyes being sky-pale and the like as icy.

I'm still not so sure about Greymane's sword, considering his trepidation about using it near Burn's temple, but I suppose it could have been aspected to something else and he could have been leery about crossing the Ascendency Streams. And him taking refuge in Burn's temple still makes sense, both practically and because there's traditionally a big history of sky/earth romances in real-world mythology, and Stoop already referenced how weather influences the land.

This is the problem with doing lots of quotes. Now I'm really confused.

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 07 April 2009 - 09:57 PM