[tiam]

he likely does have a connection to burn bt i dont think its mentioned that his sword is aspected. Also the riders likely salute greymane as some one incredibly powerful like Ereko or osserc so it was likely a mark of respect. I also have a feeling that Greymane opened the stormwall onto Korelri thats what gt everyone killed

[sqeekypotato]

dawnkiller, on Apr 7 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

So . . . why does ice necessarily mean Greymane -- or the Riders -- are aspected to the (dying) Jaghut warren of Omotose Phellack?

I've always felt that the storm riders were ice aspected. I think I got that opinion from Night of Knives. When they appeared there, their armor and weapsons had the look of being frozen and they even freeze an entire ship and use it to sink the guy in his boat who is holding them off if I remember correctly. In fact, when they first appear there and get the ship that they use as a weapon I think everyone aboard dies because they freeze to death. But I haven't read that book in a long time so I could be really wrong on that.

Also, one last quote about Greymane and the cold. It is on pg 50 of the Trade paperback.

Earlier on the page Kyle says "The water is cold, terrifyingly so. Kyle felt his toes and fingers already tingling. What use might he be when he eventually reached a ship, too numb to swing a weapon? Had anyone thought of that?"

Then further down when Greymane is talking with him

" 'Swim to the fourth ship,' he rumbled to Kyle, and shook him by his hauberk. 'Fourth?' 'The fourth most distant, lad.' 'Oh, right. Yes. What about the cold?' The renegade blinked, puzzled. 'What cold?"

There is definitely something going on with Greymane and the cold, but I'll leave it alone now.

This post has been edited by sqeekypotato: 08 April 2009 - 04:36 PM

[dawnkiller]

sqeekypotato, on Apr 8 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

I've always felt that the storm riders were ice aspected. I think I got that opinion from Night of Knives. When they appeared there, their armor and weapsons had the look of being frozen and they even freeze an entire ship and use it to sink the guy in his boat who is holding them off if I remember correctly. In fact, when they first appear there and get the ship that they use as a weapon I think everyone aboard dies because they freeze to death. But I haven't read that book in a long time so I could be really wrong on that.

I'm not arguing that they are, 'cause I think you're right, just which Warren they're using. Elder Warrens aren't so much, at least not by humans -- they've been refined over time (like Liosan or Thyrllan or whatever the Tiste name was/Tellann/Thyr). There's also some Warrens which seem to exist between others -- Shadow is between light and dark, and I think at some point someone mentioned a degree of cross with Mockra because of the illusion aspect. If you think about it, my interpretation of Serc as encompassing all weather, which admittedly may be total bullshit, would follow a refining path. Omotose Phellack seemed to be very blunt, pure ice -- glacial. The Stormriders appear to achieve ice via storms and temperature, which is arguably more versatile. Basically, I'm postulating that Serc encompases a hybrid, "modern" equivalent of Omotose Phellack, which was a possibility I recall lacking until we saw the thing used in RotCG. I remember the hubbub about Sinn pulling out the ice in TBH...

Or it could be some variation thereof, like the Stormriders could be some kind of creepy lovechildren of Ruse and Omotose Phellack. Or I'm just wrong on every count, which happens often enough it no longer bugs me.

(I may be a little respectful of ice storms since one forced my hometown to declare a state of national emergancy and I myself went without several days of power in the dead of winter a few years back.)

[sqeekypotato]

dawnkiller, on Apr 8 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

sqeekypotato, on Apr 8 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

I've always felt that the storm riders were ice aspected. I think I got that opinion from Night of Knives. When they appeared there, their armor and weapsons had the look of being frozen and they even freeze an entire ship and use it to sink the guy in his boat who is holding them off if I remember correctly. In fact, when they first appear there and get the ship that they use as a weapon I think everyone aboard dies because they freeze to death. But I haven't read that book in a long time so I could be really wrong on that.

I'm not arguing that they are, 'cause I think you're right, just which Warren they're using. Elder Warrens aren't so much, at least not by humans -- they've been refined over time (like Liosan or Thyrllan or whatever the Tiste name was/Tellann/Thyr). There's also some Warrens which seem to exist between others -- Shadow is between light and dark, and I think at some point someone mentioned a degree of cross with Mockra because of the illusion aspect. If you think about it, my interpretation of Serc as encompassing all weather, which admittedly may be total bullshit, would follow a refining path. Omotose Phellack seemed to be very blunt, pure ice -- glacial. The Stormriders appear to achieve ice via storms and temperature, which is arguably more versatile. Basically, I'm postulating that Serc encompases a hybrid, "modern" equivalent of Omotose Phellack, which was a possibility I recall lacking until we saw the thing used in RotCG. I remember the hubbub about Sinn pulling out the ice in TBH...

Or it could be some variation thereof, like the Stormriders could be some kind of creepy lovechildren of Ruse and Omotose Phellack. Or I'm just wrong on every count, which happens often enough it no longer bugs me.

(I may be a little respectful of ice storms since one forced my hometown to declare a state of national emergancy and I myself went without several days of power in the dead of winter a few years back.)

OOOooooooohhhh! I get where your coming from.

I've always taken the storm riders as inhabitants of Omatose, that because of the ritual that the Jaghut used are now spilling over into Wu. Granted this is completely based on an idea in my head of where the Cut is located vs. where the ice fields were that Ereko and Kyle were talking about, never having looked at a map that showed them all. I just figured the storm riders originated from around the ice fields. I figured that the storms were due to the sudden change bringing all that cold air cause on regular ocean air.

You live in Montreal I would guess. I'm in T.O. We call the army out when there is to much snow!

[dawnkiller]

sqeekypotato, on Apr 8 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

I've always taken the storm riders as inhabitants of Omatose, that because of the ritual that the Jaghut used are now spilling over into Wu. Granted this is completely based on an idea in my head of where the Cut is located vs. where the ice fields were that Ereko and Kyle were talking about, never having looked at a map that showed them all. I just figured the storm riders originated from around the ice fields. I figured that the storms were due to the sudden change bringing all that cold air cause on regular ocean air.

I'm not sure where the Riders originated, and Omotose or one of its ilk may be a good explanation, if they aren't indiginous life-forms/entities; I mean, there's a lot of hints that the Quorl-riding Moranth were inhabitants of a large fragment of Shadow, all the Tiste are immigrants, and we've seen multiple demons (sometimes just poor summoned bastards who got ditched after the job was done) . . . and we're still finding entirely new stages in evolution, like Ereko, so lord only knows where they come from.

I'm not sure where the ice fields were off the top of my head, but I know the Cut is around Kolrei/Genabackis from Greymane's testimony. The Riders could also be a divergent enclave of another group, like Karsa's tribe existed largely isolated for ages.

Quote

You live in Montreal I would guess. I'm in T.O. We call the army out when there is to much snow!

I am actually a heathen American, which I trust my lack of Us when not quoting text would have eventually revealed -- I have the misfortune of living in Tornado Alley, where the sky turning green right before it carries away large parts of the landscape is a pretty normal occurrence due to clashing weather systems. The ice storm a few years back was unexpectedly severe, and in fact the roof above our office collapsed under the weight of the icemelt (which was kind of awesome, but mostly because mine wasn't the office being flooded). I do visit and love T.O., though.

[Dammon]

I can't remember which book i read it in but i seem to remember a comment or thought from someone saying that the Jaghut's constant use of Otomose allowed something into the the world that did not belong, this was made in referance to the ice-fields and i believe could mean the stormriders.

I'd try and find it when i get home but i gave all the books to a friend to read

[Grief]

Night of Knives, the Stormriders were allowed in/created by a massive ice-ritual, we don't know what it was used for(

Spoiler

war on death perhaps?

).

[Aptorian]

Grief, on May 8 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

Night of Knives, the Stormriders were allowed in/created by a massive ice-ritual, we don't know what it was used for(

Spoiler

war on death perhaps?

).

Sounded much more recent than that in my opinion. I'm guessing it was one of the bigger clashes between Jaghut and Imass.

[MTS]

Yeah, I'm more inclined to agree with Apt. Although, if they were to be used as allies against the Imass, then I don't know why the Imass haven't gone after the Stormriders, foreign interlopers as they are.

[Aptorian]

I don't think the Stormriders were ever ment to be used by the Jaghut. Their pasage from Omotose Phellack to Burn was probably a fluke. Like someone made a hole in a damn and not just water passed through the hole to the other side.

I imagine that a certain amount of good will is lended the Stormriders because they too have been the victims of careless Jaghut sorcery. Also the Stormriders remain contained. Should they however break through the stormwall and begin spreading, the Imass might begin taking an intrest.

Question is how many and how strong the Stormriders are. Perhaps they can't be stopped as easily as a couple of thousand T'lan Imass attacking them.

[Zendog13]

Graymane's reluctance to use the sword near Burn's monastery only shows he is weary of using immense power near a sanctified area due to possible consequences. I am guessing he came to terms with the Storm-riders and tried to make a treaty but humans being what they are saw it as betrayal, attacked and things went pear shaped. I am also leaning towards the Ice aspect of things regarding him but I cannot see how that would cause problems regarding the water...unless his father's death ahs something to do with it. Maybe it was not the Riders that took him but Mael and there is an ongoing grudge there.

[Aptorian]

Then why is he called Stonewielder? And not for example Icewielder?

[Zendog13]

TRue, I had forgotten that, been a while I guess. "Stone Cold" then?

[Dammon]

dawnkiller, on Apr 9 2009, 12:51 AM, said:

sqeekypotato, on Apr 8 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

I've always felt that the storm riders were ice aspected. I think I got that opinion from Night of Knives. When they appeared there, their armor and weapsons had the look of being frozen and they even freeze an entire ship and use it to sink the guy in his boat who is holding them off if I remember correctly. In fact, when they first appear there and get the ship that they use as a weapon I think everyone aboard dies because they freeze to death. But I haven't read that book in a long time so I could be really wrong on that.

I'm not arguing that they are, 'cause I think you're right, just which Warren they're using. Elder Warrens aren't so much, at least not by humans -- they've been refined over time (like Liosan or Thyrllan or whatever the Tiste name was/Tellann/Thyr). There's also some Warrens which seem to exist between others -- Shadow is between light and dark, and I think at some point someone mentioned a degree of cross with Mockra because of the illusion aspect. If you think about it, my interpretation of Serc as encompassing all weather, which admittedly may be total bullshit, would follow a refining path. Omotose Phellack seemed to be very blunt, pure ice -- glacial. The Stormriders appear to achieve ice via storms and temperature, which is arguably more versatile. Basically, I'm postulating that Serc encompases a hybrid, "modern" equivalent of Omotose Phellack, which was a possibility I recall lacking until we saw the thing used in RotCG. I remember the hubbub about Sinn pulling out the ice in TBH...

Or it could be some variation thereof, like the Stormriders could be some kind of creepy lovechildren of Ruse and Omotose Phellack. Or I'm just wrong on every count, which happens often enough it no longer bugs me.

(I may be a little respectful of ice storms since one forced my hometown to declare a state of national emergancy and I myself went without several days of power in the dead of winter a few years back.)

I can see why you get the impression that Otomose Phellack is just pure ice, however, and correct me if i am wrong here, isn't OP originally the Warren of Togg and Fanderay? the wolves of winter?

Also, when there is the quote about the wolves would of been standing at the portal to deny the Jaghut access to the warren when they first attempted to use it but they were lost due to the fall of the Crippled God, i seem to remember something along the lines of the Jaghut never truly understanding the nature of OP.

It seems to me that the True Aspect of OP is not just Ice, but Winter.

Aptorian, on May 18 2009, 01:52 AM, said:

Then why is he called Stonewielder? And not for example Icewielder?

I always assumed he was called Stonewielder because he has a big sword made of stone, not because of the warren/god he may or may not be aspected too.

[Salt-Man Z]

On the ice covering Greymane's shoulders during the battle at the Spur: a hard enough wind would freeze the moisture in the air. I didn't (and still don't) read into that scene anything more than that.

[Wampyry]

Apjologize for going off topic, but does anyone else see the similiarities between Denuth and Greymane? Half the time I think there must be a reason for the similiarities; the rest of the time I think it's just the way ICE writes about big, heavy men. Curious as to whether or not anyone else sees a reselmance between the two.

[D'rek]

On the Riders respecting Greymane - there's the severe possibility that he actually contacted them and got their respect or who-knows-what, but either way we know Greymane's sword is special and the riders saluted Kyle for having a special sword so at the very least they might've saluted Greymane just because his sword is special too. I think the OP/ice-aspectedness is plausible but based on the name 'Stonewielder' and that he doesn't like water (which he should if he was OP/ice aspected, imo) I'm going to stick with Earth/stone-aspected for now.

[The Crow]

Well, I'm not saying he couldn't be ice-aspected, but frankly I see no hard evidence to why he should be. The proof mentioned so far has been:

Resistance to cold.
"Icy" eyes.
Ice on his shoulders at the beginning of the book.

All three of these things does in no way say that he's got anything to do with ice.

Resistance to cold: He's a battle-hardened veteran, one of the old-guard, probably god-aspected and very powerful. If you put Urko beside him on that beach, I'm 150% sure that Urko would have been just as dismissive of the cold as Greymane is. Not to mention that he later says he grew up near water, which would explain a "hardening" against weather.

"Icy" eyes: I have brown eyes. Does not mean I'm a High Mage of D'riss. They all have to look some way, and if we start calling peoples affiliations out based on appearances, we're gonna get stuck somewhere shortly after Shadowthrone.

Ice on his shoulders at the beginning of the book: While I don't even think there was anything at all that says that Shen was a Serc mage (at the very least, that wasn't his only warren, seeing that he spawned "demon birds" at the beginning of the book), if he indeed was, this can easily explain the "ice-on-shoulders". If, for example, a Serc mage would create cold wind, that would solve the riddle right away, correct? I find it hard to believe that a High Mage (as Shen obviously was) is limited to creating only "warm-to-average-temperature-wind".


However, the nail in the coffin for this thought is the thing that Abyss mentioned a few posts up: the big-ass stone sword. He's called Stonewielder, because he wields a stone sword.
If he'd been the "Mortal Sword of Omtose", which by itself seems unlikely given that it in that case would've probably been a Jhag or Jhagut (yes, I ignore Redmask), then wouldn't he have had a big-ass ICE sword?

I find the image of Gothos or some other very-powerful Jhagut performing a ritual and coming up with "Behold the mortal manifestation of Omtose Phellack, in this great blade...wait, how did I turn it into stone? " somewhat hard to believe.

I apologize for this mammoth-sized post and the equally sized ranting, but I have been terribly bored the last few hours.

[D'rek]

The Crow, on Aug 9 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

Well, I'm not saying he couldn't be ice-aspected, but frankly I see no hard evidence to why he should be. The proof mentioned so far has been:

Resistance to cold.
"Icy" eyes.
Ice on his shoulders at the beginning of the book.

All three of these things does in no way say that he's got anything to do with ice.

Resistance to cold: He's a battle-hardened veteran, one of the old-guard, probably god-aspected and very powerful. If you put Urko beside him on that beach, I'm 150% sure that Urko would have been just as dismissive of the cold as Greymane is. Not to mention that he later says he grew up near water, which would explain a "hardening" against weather.

"Icy" eyes: I have brown eyes. Does not mean I'm a High Mage of D'riss. They all have to look some way, and if we start calling peoples affiliations out based on appearances, we're gonna get stuck somewhere shortly after Shadowthrone.

Ice on his shoulders at the beginning of the book: While I don't even think there was anything at all that says that Shen was a Serc mage (at the very least, that wasn't his only warren, seeing that he spawned "demon birds" at the beginning of the book), if he indeed was, this can easily explain the "ice-on-shoulders". If, for example, a Serc mage would create cold wind, that would solve the riddle right away, correct? I find it hard to believe that a High Mage (as Shen obviously was) is limited to creating only "warm-to-average-temperature-wind".


However, the nail in the coffin for this thought is the thing that Abyss mentioned a few posts up: the big-ass stone sword. He's called Stonewielder, because he wields a stone sword.
If he'd been the "Mortal Sword of Omtose", which by itself seems unlikely given that it in that case would've probably been a Jhag or Jhagut (yes, I ignore Redmask), then wouldn't he have had a big-ass ICE sword?

I find the image of Gothos or some other very-powerful Jhagut performing a ritual and coming up with "Behold the mortal manifestation of Omtose Phellack, in this great blade...wait, how did I turn it into stone? " somewhat hard to believe.

I apologize for this mammoth-sized post and the equally sized ranting, but I have been terribly bored the last few hours.

Well the other evidence for it is his relations with the icy Storm Riders.

D'rek, notes that the T'lan Imass wield swords of stone, not fire, dust or zombie...

[The Crow]

D'rek, on Aug 10 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

Well the other evidence for it is his relations with the icy Storm Riders.

D'rek, notes that the T'lan Imass wield swords of stone, not fire, dust or zombie...

It is my firm belief that fire swords, while fancy and all, would be quite useless at actually killing someone, given that they somewhat lack substance. I hold to the same reasoning when it comes to dust swords.








(And they're not zombies).


On the topic of the Storm Riders saluting him, well, they salute Osserc (or possibly Kyle, as the bearer?) as well, so it's somewhat likely that they just saluted him because he's powerful. Or, given that he tried to work out a peace between Korel and the Malazan (or something like that, he didn't exactly thoroughly explain it) it's quite possible that whatever he wanted to do would have been favorable for the Storm Riders, and thus the reason why they acknowledge him as someone to respect.