[Sindriss]

Read it in several threads that people assume or at least think that there is a likelihood of Kallor returning as the tyrant that Karsa is needed to slay in D-town. I have to admit, I found it a fair chance to happen since we knew next to nothing of the tyrant and why not, he is very tyrannical our dear Kallor.
But, as I was rereading MoI yesterday, I read the prologue and at the end of that, we see Togg looking for his mate and being highly annoyed with the one who has wounded him and driven his mate away, and it is said that that is a score it has to settle another day, since he goes to look for his mate first.

Don't have books on my at the moment, can provide quote later on tonight hopefully, if somebody else doesn't. But since Togg is reunited with his mate, I presume he might soon do something about that ancient score, and that would probably lead to him nailing (punt intended) kallor. Which would mean that karsa cannot kill him since Togg is meant to do that !!!
Crazy logic? I will leave you to be the judge of that.

[Aptorian]

Well, first thing first, Kallor would just chop of Toggs head and that would be the end of that problem

But Togg wasn't angry at Kallor specifically. It was the cirkle that that brought down the god, and the were wiped out, so there was no one to get revenge on. Kallor was on a whole other continent.

Besides this I don't think that there are that many that think Kallor was or will be ment to become the Tyrant. He came for the throne of chains, not Darujistan.

That Iron fellow we followed through the whole book was digging for something under Darujistan. That was most likely the power of the Tyrant, some lost artifact linked to the Tyrant or perhaps even the Tyrant himself.

[Sindriss]

Well, I read it in several threads so I wanted to clear it up with what I think is a bulletproof theory

Also, I recall Togg being angry with kallor and not the ones who dragged the CG down. Just like the elder gods were angry with him since he made his subjects desperate enough to attempt such a thing. Besides, I Togg considers the elder gods as young entities, just how freaking old is he???

[Aptorian]

Actually he is speaking of their warrens. It implies that his warren, a chaotic one which is most likely the beast warren, is older than what the EGs brought with them to Wu.

[Grief]

Or so he thinks.
We must remember that it may just be him considering himself older cause he was on Wu first, without knowing that they existed as elemental forces long before he did.

[Aptorian]

He is thinking about their warrens, not the gods themselves. For all we know Togg was still mortal back then.

[blackzoid]

Sindriss, on Feb 6 2009, 05:28 PM, said:

Read it in several threads that people assume or at least think that there is a likelihood of Kallor returning as the tyrant that Karsa is needed to slay in D-town. I have to admit, I found it a fair chance to happen since we knew next to nothing of the tyrant and why not, he is very tyrannical our dear Kallor.
But, as I was rereading MoI yesterday, I read the prologue and at the end of that, we see Togg looking for his mate and being highly annoyed with the one who has wounded him and driven his mate away, and it is said that that is a score it has to settle another day, since he goes to look for his mate first.

Don't have books on my at the moment, can provide quote later on tonight hopefully, if somebody else doesn't. But since Togg is reunited with his mate, I presume he might soon do something about that ancient score, and that would probably lead to him nailing (punt intended) kallor. Which would mean that karsa cannot kill him since Togg is meant to do that !!!
Crazy logic? I will leave you to be the judge of that.

1: Karsa is told to kill a GOD, not a tyrant. Perhaps the Tyrant was a God, but we don't know. And that is ignoring the fact that there was a series of Tyrant Kings in Darujistan.
2: The CG would have more motivation to kill Kallor, then Togg. Togg lost an eye and his mate. The CG was dragged into the world, smashed into the ground, was fed on by maggots that turned into the Great Ravens (stealing his power) and now lies broken and chained cos of him.


My opinion is that the (first) Tyrant is Dessimbelackis. Yes, his soul is in the Deragoth now, but that doesn't mean it can't come back out of them. If souls can escape from Draginpur and Hood's Warren, then they can escape from ascended beasts.

Didn't Samar Dev, mention in RG that the word Segulah is a corruption of a First Empire word. Can't remember exactly, but wasn't it the word for "Sword". And thanks to the Segulah's comments in TBH we do know that there is a connection between the Segulah and the Tyrant.

Tyrant-Army=Segulah=First Empire word for Sword.
First Empire leader = Dessimbelackis
Tyrant of Daraujistan = Dessimbelackis?

I mean we know that Lether was a colony of the First Empire, so why can't Darujhistan be one too? It was built on the Jaghut Barrow Rumour, but by whom?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 06 February 2009 - 06:44 PM

[Aptorian]

Uhm no. Seguleh either means shield or anvil, can't remember which, but it doesn't mean sword.

Dessimbelakis was an emperor or warrior in the First Human empire, which was situated in the 7 Cities sub continent. Darujistan lies smack in the middle of Genebackis and there has never been made a link between the city and other empires or continents.

And there's no proof or even a slight hint that Dessim is inside the Deragoth. He's just disappeared.

besides all this, hinging on the GotM'ism date, Dessim lived and died/disappeared a hundred thousand years before Darujistan was even founded.

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 06:57 PM, said:

Uhm no. Seguleh either means shield or anvil, can't remember which, but it doesn't mean sword.

Dessimbelakis was an emperor or warrior in the First Human empire, which was situated in the 7 Cities sub continent. Darujistan lies smack in the middle of Genebackis and there has never been made a link between the city and other empires or continents.

And there's no proof or even a slight hint that Dessim is inside the Deragoth. He's just disappeared.

besides all this, hinging on the GotM'ism date, Dessim lived and died/disappeared a hundred thousand years before Darujistan was even founded.

Yes, but Segulah is a First Empire word is it not? I did remember that much.

Lether was just as far away then Seven Cities then Genebackis, perhaps further.

I thought we have confirmation that Dessimbelackis was inside the Deragoth from TTH. Didn't Cotillion and ST and Travellor mention this in their meeting in that book?

Regardless, this passage takes place in HOC when Onrack and Trull are standing in front of the statues of the Deragoth.

"Onrack to Trull Sengar : ‘Dessimbelackis,’ Onrack whispered. ‘The founder of the human
First Empire. Long vanished by the time of the unleashing of the Beast Ritual. It was believed he had . . . veered.’ ‘D’ivers?’ ‘Aye.’ ‘And beasts numbered?’ ‘Seven.’ (HoC, Tpb, p.320)"


And in the BoneHunters.
P373 TBH

Ganath and Paran standing among those same statues.
"Dessimbelackis. One soul made seven-he believed that would make him immortal. An ascendent eager to become a god."

"The Deragoth are far older than Dessimbelackis", Paran said.
"Convenient vessels, she said. Their kind was nearly extinct. He found the last few survivors and made use of them.

[Aptorian]

Yeah but these quotes doesn't specifically state that he is inside the deragoth, just that he may have used them to become a d'ivers.

Torruld Segulah or how ever it was spelled was the elder word for Shield Anvil, a tittle of a gods servant. Not a First Empire word specifically.

Anyway, the point is that it is EXTREMELLY UNLIKELY that Dessim is the Tyrant. Nothing at all would lead us to think that.

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

Yeah but these quotes doesn't specifically state that he is inside the deragoth, just that he may have used them to become a d'ivers.

Torruld Segulah or how ever it was spelled was the elder word for Shield Anvil, a tittle of a gods servant. Not a First Empire word specifically.

Anyway, the point is that it is EXTREMELLY UNLIKELY that Dessim is the Tyrant. Nothing at all would lead us to think that.

Ok, I thought the word was specifially First Empire.
The impression I got was that he transferred his soul into the last Deragoth. He definitedly did something with them.:

'Osric to L'oric. 'The Hounds of Darkness. The seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made pact with - and oh, weren't the Nameless Ones shaken by that unholy alliance? The seven beasts, L'oric, that gave the name to Seven Cities, although no memory survives of that particular truth. The Seven Holy Cities of our time are not the original ones of course. Only the number has survived.'(HoC uk mmpb, p.818)

Kallor and Dessimbelackis are however the only Tyrants/Emperors that we know of from that time period. Circa 130,000 years before burn's sleep.
(Between the time of the T'lan Imass and the present day events, Malazan Empire etc.)
If we rule out Kallor, who else is there? Of course that always leaves the door open for someone else I guess. Someone we have not heard about I guess.

When was Daraujistan founded? Do we have a date at all in relation to Burn's Sleep? Back then Dessimbelackis (or Kallor) may have been searching for the tomb of Raest in order to get even more power.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 06 February 2009 - 10:35 PM

[BeLeG]

Didnt Gothos say that a wolf visited him?A wolf whom Kallor had wounded?
That was Togg right?

[Aptorian]

Yeah, I think so. The wounding part was of course indirect, by pushing the cirkle to do something terrible.

[Sinisdar Toste]

pardon me but...

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

Well, first thing first, Kallor would just chop of Toggs head and that would be the end of that problem

much as i think kallor is a cool guy and can fight pretty good...

this is utter nonsense.

togg is a beast god. worshipped since before kallor was born. his children can slaughter k'ell hunters with ease, i doubt kallor could slay more than two.
there is no way kallor would even be able to put himself in a position to decapitate togg

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I think if Kallor will not be the tyrant, it will be true in the sense he was going to get it, but failed and/or died.

[D'rek]

FYI, the whole Torruld and Seguleh thing, yeah they make Shield Anvil and were probably the term(s) for the Tyrant's forces, the Seguleh his warriors and the T'orruld [Cabal] his mages. Evidently each has evolved to something slightly different since, neh?


I think Dessim already has the whole bloody FE reinforced by freaking Deragoth, Nameless Ones and all sorts of tribal warrior castes working with him back in 7C. If he also had some other empire in Genebackis focused on Darujhistan with the Seguleh and a bunch of undying mages, that would just be pitiful of him.

If it were Kallor, comes the question of what the hell happened to this nation he ruled as Tyrant? It sure doesn't seem to have been wasted by enemies, but Kallor doesn't just get up and leave his nations in peace while he goes gallavanting either, he would've destroyed it by his own hand or something. Plus the folks talking about the fateful return and all that would be ass-groaningly bad if "oh look, the Tyrant was a few miles away half a decade ago in MoI but nobody noticed then"


Frankly the whole bit is dumb if it isn't very strongly related to Raest, because how exactly does a rumour about Tyrant A (not Raest) result in a city being founded by people hunting (unsuccessfully) for the crypt of completely-unrelated-Tyrant B (Raest), whom nobody had ever heard of...? They apparently dug at the exact right spot to find Raest's crypt (if it weren't in an OP warren). How did they get so precise in their digging if they were digging for a completely different Tyrant's tomb in a completely different location?!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I sure hope Raest doesn't try and claim the throne...I'm just starting to like him.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Quote

And there's no proof or even a slight hint that Dessim is inside the Deragoth. He's just disappeared.

I'm sorry Apt but in TTH,after all his philosofical musings on the Hounds, Cotillion talks to ST and they pretty much state clear that he had splitted his souls in the seven last Deragoth

[Aptorian]

Hmm...

10 hmm's...

[Sindriss]

Quote

It longed for vengeance, but those who had wounded it were dead. There but remained the man seated on the throne, the one who had laid waste to the beast's home. Time enough for the settling of that score.

Quote

The three distant figures unveiled warrens, each vanishing into their Elder realms. The beast elected to follow none of them. They were young entities as far as he and his mate were concerned

So actually it is stated that it is not only the warrens Togg considers young but also their existances. And Apt, first quote also shows that the wolf is hungry for vengeance against Kallor and not just the wizards who had pulled the CG down.