[blackzoid]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion of Tehol's "market adjustment" in Lether is, in the wake of our own global recession.
I know a lot of poeple cheered when reading the book (I did) when the guys at the top ran out of money, but now that 2 years has passed since RG was published and our own economy is tanking, do we all still feel that it was a good thing that Tehol did?
What about the victims of the crash? Didn't all the money become meaningless?

I'm actually hoping that this is something SE will address in Dust of Dreams. The fact that Tehol's changes have not made Letheras a perfect monetary utiopa. That there are some things that Tehol can't do with money.

[Aptorian]

I think there were plenty of us who knew what Tehol was doing wasn't pretty or noble. Tehols scholar girlfriend scolds him for what he is doing.

Lether didn't just go into a recession. The entire society was collapsing around them, the indebted were no longer gonna be slaves but in the process thousands and thousands of people were going to die sick, starving or killed in the conflicts that would follow.

If Erikson paints us a picture of a new utopian society when Dust starts, it's going to be a load of bull. Not even the presence of the Malazan Armny is going to be able to handle what comes. Now of course maybe Mael is going to work some kind of Mojo, but I somehow doubt it.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Feb 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

I think there were plenty of us who knew what Tehol was doing wasn't pretty or noble. Tehols scholar girlfriend scolds him for what he is doing.

Lether didn't just go into a recession. The entire society was collapsing around them, the indebted were no longer gonna be slaves but in the process thousands and thousands of people were going to die sick, starving or killed in the conflicts that would follow.

If Erikson paints us a picture of a new utopian society when Dust starts, it's going to be a load of bull. Not even the presence of the Malazan Armny is going to be able to handle what comes. Now of course maybe Mael is going to work some kind of Mojo, but I somehow doubt it.

Considering Mael's talks about how humans aren't answer I doubt He'll wip up some Elder Mojo to save them.
Depending on timeframes and the 14th position and such things I can see Letheras and the immediate area around it being somewhat settled but the large part Lether reverting back to their older borders.

[blackzoid]

Urizen, on Feb 3 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Feb 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

I think there were plenty of us who knew what Tehol was doing wasn't pretty or noble. Tehols scholar girlfriend scolds him for what he is doing.

Lether didn't just go into a recession. The entire society was collapsing around them, the indebted were no longer gonna be slaves but in the process thousands and thousands of people were going to die sick, starving or killed in the conflicts that would follow.

If Erikson paints us a picture of a new utopian society when Dust starts, it's going to be a load of bull. Not even the presence of the Malazan Armny is going to be able to handle what comes. Now of course maybe Mael is going to work some kind of Mojo, but I somehow doubt it.

Considering Mael's talks about how humans aren't answer I doubt He'll wip up some Elder Mojo to save them.
Depending on timeframes and the 14th position and such things I can see Letheras and the immediate area around it being somewhat settled but the large part Lether reverting back to their older borders.

But Letheras's economy is destroyed. I can see (if the 14th pull out and Letheras doesn't get Ascendent/God help) Letheras being taken over by their neighbours. Why should soldiers fight if they are not getting paid? What about the services? Will the Rat-Catcher's guild take over and help everyone?
Tehol has basically destroyed the country. If he had moderated his policies and kept some of the old system in place, it would not be so bad, but by turning it all upset down, he has left the country vulnerable to its (human) neighbours.

[Aptorian]

blackzoid, on Feb 3 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

Urizen, on Feb 3 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Feb 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

I think there were plenty of us who knew what Tehol was doing wasn't pretty or noble. Tehols scholar girlfriend scolds him for what he is doing.

Lether didn't just go into a recession. The entire society was collapsing around them, the indebted were no longer gonna be slaves but in the process thousands and thousands of people were going to die sick, starving or killed in the conflicts that would follow.

If Erikson paints us a picture of a new utopian society when Dust starts, it's going to be a load of bull. Not even the presence of the Malazan Armny is going to be able to handle what comes. Now of course maybe Mael is going to work some kind of Mojo, but I somehow doubt it.

Considering Mael's talks about how humans aren't answer I doubt He'll wip up some Elder Mojo to save them.
Depending on timeframes and the 14th position and such things I can see Letheras and the immediate area around it being somewhat settled but the large part Lether reverting back to their older borders.

But Letheras's economy is destroyed. I can see (if the 14th pull out and Letheras doesn't get Ascendent/God help) Letheras being taken over by their neighbours. Why should soldiers fight if they are not getting paid? What about the services? Will the Rat-Catcher's guild take over and help everyone?
Tehol has basically destroyed the country. If he had moderated his policies and kept some of the old system in place, it would not be so bad, but by turning it all upset down, he has left the country vulnerable to its (human) neighbours.

It's not actually that bad.

Unlike our society an ancient empire can cope with running out of cash because as long as it has an army that still gets fed it will be able to keep relative peace. It's going to be a rough ride, but as we see in the end of RG Tehol was already working on getting the empire's power structure under control. Next will be getting other major cities with garrisons under control and securing resources.

The problem is going to be knitting back the society when their entire way of life has been drastically altered. That and the fact that now the bolkando and the White Face are on the gates.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well you forget, not only is tehol a financial genius, he has the entire wealth of the empire secreted under the river... i wouldn't underestimate his ability to rebuild the economy of letheras itself and the surrounding provinces. faraway areas such as drene, bluerose and the lands just south of the tiste edur will probably be abandoned by tehol, but he has all the resources and know how to keep chaos and anarchy from claiming all

[Aptorian]

Sinisdar Toste, on Feb 3 2009, 08:29 PM, said:

well you forget, not only is tehol a financial genius, he has the entire wealth of the empire secreted under the river... i wouldn't underestimate his ability to rebuild the economy of letheras itself and the surrounding provinces. faraway areas such as drene, bluerose and the lands just south of the tiste edur will probably be abandoned by tehol, but he has all the resources and know how to keep chaos and anarchy from claiming all

Yeah he has the money but how is he going to distribute it? The entire letherii system is based on slavery. First, all the people who had been taken from their natural homes are probably going to there now. Next the ones that stay aren't likely to happy with continuing what they're doing. How many are going to settle for continuing their work in the quarries, on the war galleys, in fields? A lot of wealth and organisation needs implemented and it isn't going to be a matter of snapping your fingers. Meanwhile fields are gonna be untended, supply routes are breaking down and all normal civic and meneal tasks within the cities will have stopped.

Tehols going to fix everything surely, but a hell of a lot of people are going to suffer while he mops up after his dismantling of the regime.

[Illuyankas]

If only there was an army requiring services of Tehol's empire that could be repaid by helping out with all these things! If only there was a massive amount of gold available to pay these new employees of the State for their previously unpaid work! If only Tehol was some kind of economic genius who would most certainly have had a plan to shorten any period of strife after his destablisation succeeded!

[HoosierDaddy]

I still heartily cheer his diabolical genius. Letheras needed a revolution, perhaps our world does as well.

[D'rek]

Don't forget that a lot of the Indebted got shipped out to the paradise-islands too. A slave system isn't going to reinsert itself without the slaves...

[Silanda]

I found it very weird reading RG while the financial situation in my country (and the world too) collapses in ruin.

The conspiracy theorist in me has been wondering the last couple of weeks whether there's a real world Tehol behind the scenes orchestrating all of this financial chaos.

[Illuyankas]

10-to-1 it's the Dalai Lama.

[HoosierDaddy]

3:1 It's Brood.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

IT WAS I YOU FOOLS

I HAD HELP FROM A RUBBER LIZARD

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HEE

I think things in Lether will be better in the long run. The concept of Indebtness is over. Things won't be better straight away, not even in a few years but the economy in lether will get better.

[Binder of Demons]

Illuyankas, on Feb 4 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

10-to-1 it's the Dalai Lama.

I nearly choked on my coffee reading that. Oh how i wish there was rep to give out again. Have imaginary rep instead.

[Sindriss]

I had more fun with the Blame Brood. Never gets old to be honest

[Baruk the Blushing]

Just imagine what Tehol could have done with asset backed securities.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

....What could he have done?

[Karnadas]

I think he was fully justified. To remove the old system, the only plausible way of doing so was to dismantle the economy and start from scratch. Sure, there's short-term suffering, but to think it would all sort itself out immediately is a hope grounded in the old beliefs of the empire.

It's very much the case in the real world too. The earth has more than enough resources to support an afluent lifestyle for every single person on the planet and, with suitable technological research, there would be no need for money - the concept would be moot as people would not need to work to earn a living. The only reason we need money is to represent what we own, and is grounded in a conception that we need to possess most things that we use. To remove the concept of money though, you would need to completely dismantle every single world economy and start from scratch... Tehol managed it with an empire, we need to manage it with a planet...

Quote

The conspiracy theorist in me has been wondering the last couple of weeks whether there's a real world Tehol behind the scenes orchestrating all of this financial chaos.

You'll probably find that the main banking families of america - such as the Rockafellows(sp?) are responsible for this. The world is slaved to these families, though most people do not seem to realise this...

[amphibian]

Karnadas, on Feb 26 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

I think he was fully justified. To remove the old system, the only plausible way of doing so was to dismantle the economy and start from scratch. Sure, there's short-term suffering, but to think it would all sort itself out immediately is a hope grounded in the old beliefs of the empire.

It's very much the case in the real world too. The earth has more than enough resources to support an afluent lifestyle for every single person on the planet and, with suitable technological research, there would be no need for money - the concept would be moot as people would not need to work to earn a living. The only reason we need money is to represent what we own, and is grounded in a conception that we need to possess most things that we use. To remove the concept of money though, you would need to completely dismantle every single world economy and start from scratch... Tehol managed it with an empire, we need to manage it with a planet...

Quote

The conspiracy theorist in me has been wondering the last couple of weeks whether there's a real world Tehol behind the scenes orchestrating all of this financial chaos.

You'll probably find that the main banking families of america - such as the Rockafellows(sp?) are responsible for this. The world is slaved to these families, though most people do not seem to realise this...

I do not think you are a moron, but I believe you have said moronic things here.

To discard the concept of money would be to revert back to lugging hunks of shiny metal around and bartering. Money (paper and now digital) facilitates things in a manner that physical items cannot allow. You would have to alter the psychology of the vast majority of every human on the planet in order to eliminate the concept of money. Good luck with that.

Tehol's collapse of the Letherii economy was kind of simplistic, but I appreciate what Erikson was trying to tell us - the same thing that Umair Haque and Nouriel Roubini have been telling us for the last fewl years - that bad corporate and government DNA leads to disaster. Erikson's vision doesn't go as far as finding counterexamples like the difference between the Obama/Clinton presidential campaigns, Google, Zara, Zappos, or Amazon (to a lesser degree). I'd be interested in seeing what the new Lether looks like, with the removal of the Inquisitors, the greatly reduced labor pool and putting the empire back together after two invasions and Icarium's jaunt to the unknown.

So yes, I'd still cheer on Tehol - while reserving doubts about the plan for fixing things after the destruction of the economy.