[Ain't_It_Just_]

I've seen them mentioned in RG, during the Awl campaign. What is it?

[Hinter]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 15 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

I've seen them mentioned in RG, during the Awl campaign. What is it?

Iirc its a formation that the letherii infantry form up in when advancing. I'm guessing that the front ranks are not side by side but formed up in a sawtooth formation.

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Like that?

EDIT: Well that didn't work, doesn't look like that at all in the editor! You'll have to fall back on your imagination...

This post has been edited by Hinter: 15 January 2009 - 12:02 PM

[D'rek]

Basically a series of triangles with tough guys on the points so that any cavalry or charging horde of unorganized infantry will automatically be funneled into the ruts between the triangles whereupon suddenly they're surrounded on 3 sides and can't defend against the spears coming from all directions...

[Benji]

As a tactic, it should work against Cavalry but be useless against infantry. If I recall, they were in this formation against the Awl who had next to none horsemen? Or am I making that up?

[Abyss]

Somewhere there is a discussion, possibly RCG, of individual independent wedges of infantry advancing rather than holding a long line, basically breaking up an enemy line rather than meeting it with another line and just grinding against each other (no not like that you perverts).

I suppose against cavalry this would make sense only if the wedge is wide enough that it cannot be jumped or easily skirted - a rider avoiding the point would be open to attack from the rest of either side, but could also maintain speed of his mount and strike at an entire line of infantry without the sort of 90 degree turn that would be necessary against a solid square or sufficiently deep line.

- Abyss, plays a mean game of Risk...

[HoosierDaddy]

Not used against cavalry, like D'rek said it is an infantry vs. infantry formation. Sawtooth formation looks like this:

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This formation allows for a lesser-trained enemy to penetrate into the saw-tooth formation where they then meet attack from all sides. It is a way of encircling individual pockets of infantry. It requires well-trained troops because it is hard to maintain the formation because the spear-points have troops behind them that could strike their unprotected backs.

Edit: Damnit!

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 15 January 2009 - 08:00 PM

[D'rek]

The Nemil used an extremely similar tactic against the Trell (who had no cavalry either), though instead of triangles they opened long corridors in their formation that the fanatic Trell would charge straight into and get slaughtered. The formation has its roots in anti-cavalry, because a horse is only so smart and if not superbly trained/disciplined it will naturally run into the pockets made by the formation. The same principle works against fanatical, barbaric infantry because they tend to just run towards the enemy mindlessly, and even if they realize the stupidity of running into the pockets, they have a hundred fellow madmen pushing them from behind...

[Seguleh 1st]

as i recall, it availed the nemil naught, cause they were facing an opponent even cleverer. and died.

[D'rek]

Well it certainly availed them well for the first nth years before the Trell leaders drank their poisoned water and mute-dude took charge. It served them long enough to become a standard tactic of the Nemil and I'm sure it worked great so long as the Trell kept fighting like savages...

[Hinter]

HoosierDaddy, on Jan 15 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

Not used against cavalry, like D'rek said it is an infantry vs. infantry formation. Sawtooth formation looks like this:

^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^

This formation allows for a lesser-trained enemy to penetrate into the saw-tooth formation where they then meet attack from all sides. It is a way of encircling individual pockets of infantry. It requires well-trained troops because it is hard to maintain the formation because the spear-points have troops behind them that could strike their unprotected backs.

Edit: Damnit!

Lmao! It's a shitter isn't it!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

If the wedge is meant to encircle the enemy, what happens to the point of it? Won't they have to deal with what's in front of them?

[HoosierDaddy]

Encircle in the sense that individual infantry and perhaps pockets are surrounded while the most eliite troops, placed at the pinnacle of the wedges, are penetrating and causing chaos. Like I said, it is all about having the more highly-trained and focused infantry.

[D'rek]

The troops on the point should be heavy infantry and are focusing more on shielding themselves (phalanx-style) then on actually hitting back a lot. And that's why it only works on less organized units. If two equally disciplined sawtooth wedge formations advanced on each other... it would be slow going and not a lot would happen...

[Abyss]

But a wedge is a formation used to break up a long/deep line of opposing troops. For two wedges to face each other you would need two opposing forces advancing on each other in sets of wedges, which basically becomes a very scattered series of lines and engagements (and likely complete chaos).

I'm speculating here, but isn't the aswer to the wedge to have your lines prepared to split into columns, allow the wedge to get between two lines, and then crush them?

- Abyss, like Napolean with better hygiene

[Tapper]

Wedges are a poor infantry formation. Very few fighters are actually fighting, most of the people in the centre of the wedge are standing still, or pushing the guys in front of them while they fight. You most definately do not want an entire wedge to penetrate the enemy line and get swamped as a result, as the various units don't make contact with one another and can't aid each other.

The way Erikson explains why the Malazan infantry deploys in wedges is to delay the moment of the enemy's rout, probably to increase the slaughter or make the entire enemy army rout at the same time, to make sure the field is taken entirely and not in portions, prolonging the inevitable and creating last-man-stands, which are extremely bloody.

Another reason could be equipment. If they're armed to go in close and dirty, they'll have a distinct advantage over spearwielding infantry that needs space and dressed lines - I think it was also explicitly stated that the wedge was used only against less disciplined enemies.

Cavalry: the sole benefit for cavalry to be employed in a wedge is that horses will not charge lines... but will charge gaps. So, what you do is give the first horse a clear open space between 2 units, or a shot down guy, or a gap created by anything else, and it will charge into it. The horses directly behind it will follow since they see the gap, too.
From there on, it's flock mentality. Charging a gap also makes sense because cavalry does NOT want to be bogged down... you're sitting there, open on all sides, on a screaming spear-studded horse that's panicking, and there's more and more screaming horses and vulnerable guys piling up on you from behind. Messy.

Tapper - not exactly a fan of cavalry in war-games but will eat raw horse if you call it sashimi.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jan 19 2009, 09:38 AM, said:

I'm speculating here, but isn't the aswer to the wedge to have your lines prepared to split into columns, allow the wedge to get between two lines, and then crush them?

Irrelevant. In the Malazan world the answer to wedges is CUSSERS MOTHERF&%$ER!!!

Just like everything else...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Perhpas the point of wedges is to lock both sides against each other and impede serious movement. Like in RotCG when Nait was fighting only one person a a time.

[HoosierDaddy]

The point of wedge formations are to break enemy lines in an infantry engagement. Create havoc, where your superior discipline can be used to ROUT lesser disciplined infantry. Once those lines break, it doesn't matter that some of your troops aren't fighting, it's easy killing time.

[Abyss]

Cussers aren't as effective when wedges of infantry have penetrated into opposite lines,, since they are as likely to take out your own soldiers. Sure, cussers can break up lines etc etc, but try maintaining formation when soldiers know their own people are going to start dropping watermelon sized balls of doom on their heads any second. hence, send a bunch of wedges deep and fast into weak lines and then the lines are more likely to break when other lines, cavalry charges, etc start hitting them while the wedges are fighting 'inside'.

On the other hand, that also brings us back to why a deep line is an effective fighting formation - blow a hole in it with cussers or whatever and the soldiers behind move forward and close the gap. Blow a wedge up and all you have left, best case, is a much smaller less effective wedge more likely to be overwhelmed. An effective long/deep line will open a space around a wedge then close in and keep it from moving, kill it and then fill the gap it caused.

When you see a movie with a glorious mass mounted charge straight into a deep line (think Gandalf and the Rohanim at the end of The Two Towers), you're basically seeking a suicide charge, unless the line is shallow or weak enough that the riders can break all the way thru. Otherwise cavalry would typically sweep along a line, rather than plow right into it. Cavalry's main strength is mobility. Sure, an individual rider will beat the crap out of an individual foot soldier most of the time, but a hundred trained riders against a hundred trained infantry who can, for example form a solid square and push back a charge, if a whole other story.

- Abyss, is ready for that war on the postal service when DoD comes out.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Speaking of the cavalry charge, Abyss, remember in DG when the Wickans (in one of their fights) swept along the line of 7C peasants and reached out with their blades? Could that be an effective technique, do you think?