[Sinisdar Toste]

lifeslayer, on 23 November 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

Ain, on 14 January 2009 - 10:10 AM, said:

The Chain...it's a pity we don't know the identities of more Unaligned apart from Obelisk/Burn because then we might be able to discern more information.

I don't know why I assumed this, but I keep thinking that the Unaligned Chain is Karsa. Also, there's allusions to the chains of souls he drags around with him - I remember Samar Dev saying it at least once in TBH and perhaps again in RG.

He was at one point the Knight of Chains, right? I don't know if that's true any longer.

i don't think that karsa has that close a relationship with tCG. after the end of RG they must be pretty splitsville i should think. if anything i'd say he's on his way to becoming a god of war, or perhaps balance, a la kilmandaros and her love of destroying things set up by sentient minds.

[ShadowRaven]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 November 2010 - 05:36 AM, said:

lifeslayer, on 23 November 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

Ain, on 14 January 2009 - 10:10 AM, said:

The Chain...it's a pity we don't know the identities of more Unaligned apart from Obelisk/Burn because then we might be able to discern more information.

I don't know why I assumed this, but I keep thinking that the Unaligned Chain is Karsa. Also, there's allusions to the chains of souls he drags around with him - I remember Samar Dev saying it at least once in TBH and perhaps again in RG.

He was at one point the Knight of Chains, right? I don't know if that's true any longer.

i don't think that karsa has that close a relationship with tCG. after the end of RG they must be pretty splitsville i should think. if anything i'd say he's on his way to becoming a god of war, or perhaps balance, a la kilmandaros and her love of destroying things set up by sentient minds.

Didn't Fiddler hide the Chain card from the reading in DoD? As Tavore didn't get assigned any card in it I keep thinking she is the Chain; she basically binds the Bonehunters to her will to accomplish something only she knows about (and maybe QB and Bottle).

Also, I'm pretty sure Karsa is still the Knight in Chains, but the choice has pretty much backfired on tCG. However, if Karsa still goes through with the destroy civilization plan, etc. it would still be somewhat akin tCG wants to achieve.

[Ulrik]

Well, CG house is prettyspecific...he is (according to its nature) dissolving. Karsa isnt loyal Knight. Kallor is King with its own agenda and isnt much faithful. Skinner? Almost same...but we arent still sure. Banaschar? He is Fool and probably has best chance to actually help to CG. I like the whole idea of House of Chains as opposite to rather solid house structure like in House of Death.

[Abyss]

Cougar, on 14 January 2009 - 11:57 AM, said:

I don't think that each card necessarily has a personification, some maybe dormant, only at play on certain occasions or even just forces.

D, on 14 January 2009 - 03:25 PM, said:

...the Unaligned, like Sceptre, Orb, Throne, Crown, Chain and even Obelisk to to some extent are more inanimate and don't often represent people, being more like a set of actions or personality. ...

Exactly.

A position in a House does not automatically mean a Deck card refers to that person.
A position in a Deck reading does not mean that person occupies that position in a House.
A position in a House may involve as aspect separate from that person.
A card in the Deck may refer to an aspect, not the person in the House or any other person.

Thus... 'Chain' in a deck reading can refer to...

The concept of 'chains', as in bonds, or obligations, or imprisonment, in an entirely unaligned context
The Crippled God, who is 'chained';
The House of Chains specifically and as a whole, or just its influence on someone, or their influence on the House;
A individual who is aspected to chains AND/OR the House of Chains (not necessarily both), such as Karsa or Rhulad.


When Crown, Orb and Sceptre come up in Fid's reading in TB as a ref to the Nachts, I think it's because it's because they are unaligned and unimportant at that time, but may be tools of something more important later. As it turns out they assist Withal is getting to the CG's warren to break Rhulad's sword, and later they save him and Sandalath from the FA.

[chaosek]

D, on 14 January 2009 - 03:25 PM, said:

The way Fiddler closes one of his games (GotM I think) with an unaligned and declares that "True sight and judgement closes this game" makes me think most of the Unaligned, like Sceptre, Orb, Throne, Crown, Chain and even Obelisk to to some extent are more inanimate and don't often represent people, being more like a set of actions or personality. Though 3 of them did represent Withal's Nachts in tBH...

As a sidenote, if this is correct, would it be predicting the end of the series?

Spoiler

As in judgement having to do with the FA?

This post has been edited by chaosek: 19 January 2011 - 10:23 PM

[Blueiron]

chaosek, on 19 January 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

D, on 14 January 2009 - 03:25 PM, said:

The way Fiddler closes one of his games (GotM I think) with an unaligned and declares that "True sight and judgement closes this game" makes me think most of the Unaligned, like Sceptre, Orb, Throne, Crown, Chain and even Obelisk to to some extent are more inanimate and don't often represent people, being more like a set of actions or personality. Though 3 of them did represent Withal's Nachts in tBH...

As a sidenote, if this is correct, would it be predicting the end of the series?

Spoiler

As in judgement having to do with the FA?

Oh snap! If you are right that would be so nuts. around eight thousand pages before the end SE just slips in a super-obscure reference, see how long it takes for someone to notice... Wonder what "true sight" would mean then?

[Sinisdar Toste]

true sight is tavore's knowledge about what to do about the CG

[Siergiej]

I think he was, but just for the time being, cause Crippled God was scheming a big plot to eventually turn Karsa into invincible King in Chains (via Rhulad's sword). Nowadays we know that plot by the title of Reaper's Gale Of course Karsa declined the offer and I am not sure that he currently holds any position in the Deck of Dragons.

This post has been edited by Siergiej: 20 January 2011 - 10:27 AM

[Silk]

I don't think the Knight role is given and lost until said person is removed from the field of play ... i.e dead to the world. I mean Trull was Knight of Shadow (and ST and COT) had no say in his appointment to the role (likewise his and Seren's Child). I think ST and COT make reference to the CG's still having Karsa as Knight after it all went down and he refused the CG's offer of the sword when they met on their way to Darujistan.

[Sinisdar Toste]

he may be the knight of high house chains, but that doesn't mean that his interests are in the best interest of tCG. he might actively work against ol' chainey and there would be nothing tCG could do about it. he sent the house into the world to make its own way and really has very little recourse if someone decides he doesn't want his patronage.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 20 January 2011 - 04:07 PM, said:

he may be the knight of high house chains, but that doesn't mean that his interests are in the best interest of tCG. he might actively work against ol' chainey and there would be nothing tCG could do about it. he sent the house into the world to make its own way and really has very little recourse if someone decides he doesn't want his patronage.

I never thought of it quite like this, but the nail has been driven into my skull now. I like this. Makes the "don't mess with mortals" theme ring even more soundly. Will seems to be a big theme as well, with Karsa, Dassem, Rake, and various others being in possession of vast amounts of sheer good ole stubborness!