[Sinisdar Toste]

On a reread of RCG i noticed that when k'azz reveals himself to kyle he mentions that he feels as though he has been 'preserved somehow' toughened up if you will and that he sleeps and eats less all the time. also shimmer talks a lot about how the vow has blurred some people perceptions and that the avowed by virtue of their vow are becoming disconnected from the vast majority of humankind. this combined with the fact that the avowed vowed eternal opposition to the malazan empire made me think that perhaps the avowed have become kind of a modern day t'lan imass.
the avowing must have been a ritual of great power to enmesh them in this undying cycle, just like the ritual of tellann. now they're not just like the t'lan imass, they can still die but even then they linger on as the brethren.

i dno maybe im seeing connections where there are none, but the similarities are striking, when the imass first did their ritual im sure that they didnt immediately turn into walking corpses, they must have retained a semblance of vitality for some time.

thoughts?

[MTS]

Interesting. Erikson has a big emphasis on history being a great cycle, so there's definitely the possibility they're a modern day T'lan Imass. The fact that the K'Chain Che'Malle enslaved the Jaghut, then the Jaghut enslaved the Imass is a good example of his history being a cycle. And the Avowed certainly have that similar disconnection from humanity, and a different perspective on things - time, for instance. Shimmer notes that she once had a conversation with one of the Avowed, and before she knew it, an entire afternoon had wizzed by. So maybe this is another subtle way of SE telling us that history is always repeating itself. Good catch, Sinisdar Toste.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 January 2009 - 05:12 AM

[Aptorian]

I'd just like to remark that the Guard are mostly Esslemonts brainchild, so you should probably rather be speculating what he is up to

[MTS]

Haha. My bad. It's SE's 8 to ICE's 2, so sometimes I tend to forget ICE was just as important in the shaping of this world. Shame on me lol and an embarrassing miss. Talking about the wrong author! Haha

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 January 2009 - 05:34 AM

[blackzoid]

Also, don't forget that according to Traveller, the T'lan Imass refused to fight the Crimson Guard when the Emperor ordered them to.
Something about the Imass saying that it would be wrong of them (the Imass) to oppose such a vow.
Perhaps the T'lan Imass recognised something of themselves in the Crimson Guard as well.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 07 January 2009 - 10:26 AM

[Traveller]

What did the Guard actually do to create their Vow? We know the Imass had a Really Big Ritual invoking Tellan, but how did the CG work theirs? Is there any info on this anywhere, because I can't remember enough detail to compare it with what the Imass did.

It would be a bit strange if any group of mortal humans could just make a Vow, and become immortal until it's completion. Well, not that strange, but you'd think there would be more immortals around if it was that simple.

[MTS]

Well, maybe they did cook up some powerful ritual. Cowl and all them are pretty powerful mages, and there was how many Avowed? 1000 or so? If the Bonecasters could do it for an entire race and have it last 300,000 years, it's possible that Cowl and his crew could've done something magically. Just think, 7 mages brought down a god. Besides, anything has the potential to be done in this world.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think its stoop who describes it to kyle, something like 600 hundred swords all raised to speak in one voice, question is, is it cowl and all the other mages who made it stick, or was it something like locusts? you get enough people together all making the same noise and they are transformed?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 08 January 2009 - 12:06 AM

[MTS]

It's possible. The Bonecasters used a magic ritual to immortalise the Imass, so the precedent is set for that. Yet SE has said before, "belief is power", or something along those lines. We simply don't know enough to make the call on how it was done, however. The Ritual of Tellann is sketchy enough, as well as the D'ivers ritual, and we've had much more exposure to them.

[Traveller]

Just regarding the D'ivers ritual - in RCG, Ho indicates on more than one occasion that he performed an ancient ritual on his own, after his own research, that resulted in his own condition - not as part of a group thing.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 January 2009 - 01:07 PM

[MTS]

Yeah, so we now know it's definitely possible. One mage becoming a D'ivers and 600 or so people immortalising themselves through will alone are quite different (isn't that their main source of strength? Will to live or something like that? Corlo talks about it when Iron Bars takes on the Seregahl in MT).

[Traveller]

As a D'ivers, Ho seems to be really strong too. Su thinks he could have stopped Yath and all the others in the mines, if he'd wanted to.

MT is the one book I haven't read for a while now - I've forgotten most of the bits regarding the Crimson Guard, I'll have to take another look.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 January 2009 - 02:00 PM

[MTS]

Ho does admit that he would go insane if he truly tapped into his power. Maybe that's why the D'ivers ritual in the First Empire went so wrong and the T'lan Imass had to step in...

[Traveller]

That's probably why Ho seems different to his brothers - they took on the madness as they wanted to use the power fully. Even though, Ho beats them when they meet up during the battle...

Possibly the same for Ryllandaras - the group that meet Karsa in seven cities seem quite coherent, and under control while the trapped element in Heng seems mad with bloodlust, and more powerful and dangerous with it.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 January 2009 - 02:09 PM

[Richard]

I thought Ho was talking about the effect of tapping into his powers whilst contaminated with ottateral rather than the madness of D'ivers. When Su mentioned his ability to use magic even in the pit was I think a reference to the inherent strength and indurence associated with D'ivers and Soletaken. The madness of D'ivers I've always thought related to the psychological issues of having more than one body but only personality spread between them (unless sembled into human form which seems to return them to a single individual).

Ho as originally a normal mage is probably the more in control and can assert that control over his other selves. People seem determined to rebel against control no matter how loose or benevolent the rule. So they plotted their freedom and got him sent to the pit.

Ryllandaras' almost reversal of the usual expected madness with the single being utterly crazed unlike the quite coherent multiple forms I thing can be reasonably ascribed to spending far too much time in his animal form imprisoned and alone. Trollbarah seemed very short on reasoning upon awakening. (Both of them. Midnight tides and The Bonehunters.)

Back to the Crimson Guard versus the Imass. I think there are definate similarites and wonder just what kind of ritual and vow you make to achieve such a result. For the Imass I think it's implied the sunder and enclose the entire warren of tallan within themselves to sustain and imprison them and their souls to allow them to achieve they mission.

I can easily understand why the Imass refused to fight the Guard. Not only would it be a fairly pointless fight inwhich only the advantage of numbers possessed by the Imass would swing it but also the Guard commited themselves to a cause in much the same way as the Imass did. I somehow doubt the Imass would enjoy facing a situation much the same as their own as it would bring the futility and naiviety of their own vow into stark contrast.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

They do seem to detach themselves from others...like Stoop or someone said, the company's old was set against the new. I remember Corlo said an Avowed could go without food or drink forever. If their Vow is never fufilled, could they become undead? Lol...the irony of that is that Hood would have them then (as his servants are often undead).

[williamjm]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 9 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

Lol...the irony of that is that Hood would have them then (as his servants are often undead).

I don't think he would, the T'lan Imass have been undead for far longer but aren't his servants.

[Darkwatch]

williamjm, on Jan 9 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 9 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

Lol...the irony of that is that Hood would have them then (as his servants are often undead).

I don't think he would, the T'lan Imass have been undead for far longer but aren't his servants.

Yet it's specificaly mentionned in RotCG that the Imass are more like preserved than undead.

[MTS]

Would he even receive the T'lan Imass' souls if they died? Does he receive everyone's souls, or just humans? Cos the Jaghut have their underworld thingy, and I doubt the Tiste would go through Hood's Gates. I think I remember something about Tiste Andii spirits just...hanging around? Not just on Lether, though.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 09 January 2009 - 11:01 PM

[Aptorian]

Jaghut seize to exist when they die, if they chose to truly die, because they don't believe in their own soul. This is explained in BH or RG.

The T'lan Imass' souls are bound in their ritual. They cannot die. The closest they can come is oblivion which is only possible if they are completely obliterated or, which seems the prefered method, they disolve in for example the sea.

The Tiste are sort of an unknown. The Tiste on Lether hung around, but that there wasn't any warren of death on lether. Most likely the Tiste have to follow the rules of the rest of the living beings of Wu and they go to Hood when they die.