[QuickTidal]

the more I think about it the more issues I have with it.

I'm writing my full review and I find I'm being both kind and severely unkind at the same time...much more conflicted than I thought i was before.

[QuickTidal]

and here is my full review. I get into what worked and what didn't. There was more of the latter sadly.

http://icebergink.bl...e-5-angels.html

[polishgenius]

Even though I still prefer Moffatt to RTD, this episode's enormous gaping plot holes has had me tending to the idea that, if the second half isn't altogether more complete, Moffatt needs to start looking at giving up the reigns, or it's going to devolve into a huge flaming mess of nonsense and get cancelled, a danger made greater by the problems on the production side of things already. He's showing serious Grant Morrison Syndrome.

I dunno who the hell would take over though.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 30 September 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Even though I still prefer Moffatt to RTD, this episode's enormous gaping plot holes has had me tending to the idea that, if the second half isn't altogether more complete, Moffatt needs to start looking at giving up the reigns, or it's going to devolve into a huge flaming mess of nonsense and get cancelled, a danger made greater by the problems on the production side of things already. He's showing serious Grant Morrison Syndrome.

I dunno who the hell would take over though.

What's funny is that clips form RTD's new show WIZARDS VS ALIENS has me impressed and yearning for him to return.
Would that be tough? I'd love to see him back.

But yeah, I actually think that Moffat will likely give up the reigns after the 50th. But yeah, I don't know who they should go to BBC would be within rights to look to the folks who do MISFITS or PRIMEVIL. I'm unsure who they'd choose.

Yeah Grant Morrison or Mark millar syndrome deinfitely.

Oooh...how about Joss Whedon taking over? Or would the Beeb never hire a non-Brit to do it? He'd be PERFECT.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 September 2012 - 09:31 PM

[polishgenius]

Whedon would be perfect but sadly he's almost certainly too distracted by Marvel... Neil Gaiman would also be great but probably (a) too expensive and (b)not interested in full-on showrunning.

I think at the moment Matt Jones and Tom MacRae would be conceivable names to throw in the mix - both have written good episodes for Who before and both have some experience in charge of a show (Jones produced a series of Shameless, MacRae is currently creator/writer of a BBC3 sitcom which I've never seen but is well received).


As long as it's not Mark Gattiss. He's big chums with Moffatt but he's been singularly shit at Doctor Who thus far.


Also: someone needs to hurry the fuck up and get Warren Ellis to write an episode of Doctor Who. Can you imagine?

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 30 September 2012 - 09:49 PM

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 30 September 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Whedon would be perfect but sadly he's almost certainly too distracted by Marvel... Neil Gaiman would also be great but probably (a) too expensive and (b)not interested in full-on showrunning.

I think at the moment Matt Jones and Tom MacRae would be conceivable names to throw in the mix - both have written good episodes for Who before and both have some experience in charge of a show (Jones produced a series of Shameless, MacRae is currently creator/writer of a BBC3 sitcom which I've never seen but is well received).


As long as it's not Mark Gattiss. He's big chums with Moffatt but he's been singularly shit at Doctor Who thus far.


Also: someone needs to hurry the fuck up and get Warren Ellis to write an episode of Doctor Who. Can you imagine?

Yeah, I would be down with either Jones or Macrae being showrunner. Though Macrae needs to sort out what's a paradox and what's not first.

Yeah, Gatiss's Who stuff has been subpar, so has his SHERLOCK stuff...at least in comparison with Moffat.

Warren Ellis-written Who would be....nutbar but awesome!

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 30 September 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Why did RTD leave to begin with? I just really want him to do another Torchwood season myself.

He just wanted to move on to other things, not because he was bored or anything. If he does a new TORCHWOOD it will be back at the BBC where it belongs and not on Starz.

[Tiste Simeon]

Am I the only one who hated Rose so much I was almost glad when she left? She spent a majority of the show whining & going "what about meeeee?"

Amy had balls (figuratively) and was a superb companion & her relationship with Rory was excellent. I was much MUCH more upset over Amy's end than Roses... Maybe it's because she is a stunning Scottish redhead (yum!) but she was easily my favourite of the companions & though I loved Tennants Doctor dearly, Matt Smith is my favourite of them. There was a real chemistry between the three of them that I never really saw with any of the other combinations... Maybe I'm the only one...

[Centzon Totochtin]

You are not Tiste, I feel the same way! Though maybe there are only two of us...

I really liked the last episode, I felt that rather than a plot hole with the doctor not going back/them moving cities, that final scene with Amy has her making her choice not to travel with the Doctor anymore.

[Messremb]

Make that 3 of us, Smith/Amy/Rory have been far superior to the previous new Who/companions. Best thing about Billy P was when she moved out of my home town.

I should have seen the end coming - that gravestone the first time round in the graveyard I had assumed would end up being old Rory. I was very gutted that they didn't tell him quits and get out after they jumped, was expecting it up to the moment Rory saw his own name - at least the episode made fully clear that once you've read it like that it *is* going to happen.

I couldn't help but wonder if River had some indication as to what was coming with the pretending not to have wrecked her wrist to escape the Angel. Also, the Tardis couldn't get there without a signal to home in on, why do they not simply flip in with Rivers wristband thingy, escape town, travel back? Of course, how does River get the manuscript to Amy for Amy to publish too?

[McLovin]

The fall finale was good, not great. I too liked the Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic, especially once they stopped killing Rory every episode. I remember hearing once in a literature class that it was better to have three people in a scene than two, the dialogue was always more interesting that way.

But I did feel the Ponds' swan song could have been done better. Having essentially two farewells sort of took the punch out, plus I didn't feel Matt Smith did his part particularly well at the end.

[QuickTidal]

As far as the Doctor/Amy/Rory thing...other than the Doctor towards them, Amy and Rory show zero emotion. Seriously, even Amy's final sentence isn't a sad one (from her) it was sad because of the Doctor's reaction. She just kind of says she's going. She very rarely expressed anything that wasn't about herself or Rory. They were both selfish towards the Doctor.

Anyways, yeah you all aren't likely the only ones...and there are a lot of Rose-haters out there.

But for my money, myself, my gf, and the majority of my friends who watch the show (locally) all miss RTD's era and the old companions and the attention to detail of STORY they used to have...instead of this mishmash of cobbling together an episode around a plot device. We miss stuff like Rose actually swearing she'd travel with him forever, same with Donna only to have that choice ripped away from them. Instead we get Amy and Rory (who were waffling on traveling with him anymore anyways), having the decision they were probably going to make anyways made for them...so they don't have to? Bah. Nonsense.

Anyways. This is how DW has always been. Everyone has their favourites, and are upset when one companion goes and another comes in. I specifically recall as a child being really upset when Adric died and the Doctor refused to go back to save him...and then in the same vein I was totally unaffected by Tegan's leaving.

[Primateus]

QuickTidal, on 01 October 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

We miss stuff like Rose actually swearing she'd travel with him forever, same with Donna only to have that choice ripped away from them. Instead we get Amy and Rory (who were waffling on traveling with him anymore anyways), having the decision they were probably going to make anyways made for them...so they don't have to? Bah. Nonsense.

I think this part goes back to our discussion on timetravel during Moffat's run and Smith's Doctor. How many more things seems to take place off-screen as opposed to earlier Doctors where one episode leads to the next.

Yes, with Rose (whom I liked) and Donna (whom I was indifferent towards) we got them swearing they'd travel with the Doctor forever. But we don't know that they would stick with that sentiment. Amy was totally psyched out too to begin with. It was said that Amy and Rory had been with the Doctor for nigh 10 years, yes? Sure, they were having doubts at that point and who is to say that Rose and Donna would not have felt the same as them?

Obviously this is just speculation seeing as how we'll never get an answer to it.

This post has been edited by Primateus: 01 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

[QuickTidal]

MAYBE Donna would have given up down the line...but Rose would NEVER have stopped traveling with him. She'd have done it till she died.

[Primateus]

are you really so sure?

[QuickTidal]

Yep. Rose was caste from moment-1 to either travel with him forever or die trying. She left her mother, her boyfriend and the rest of her life like an old shoe to do so after all.

Anyways, here's some more stuff about the ANGELS ep that casts it further into a bad light.

http://mightygodking...take-manhattan/

[Kanubis]

See, the way Rose treated Mickey just made me think she was a bitch. It's absolutely fine to fall in love with someone else, you can't just control that kind of thing, but to treat the existence of the guy who loyally waits for you in the mundane world as pretty much an annoyance that could be handy at times... grrrr. Nah, couldn't really give toss about her after that. Like some of you are saying about Rory and Amy, I only felt emotion because of the Doctor's pain over Rose, not anything she was feeling.

Donna was awesome though, and my favourite of the modern era companions just for the pure compassion of the character.

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 01 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Yeah, but they dealt with that aspect in S2 there were whole episodes dedicated to showing Rose that how she treated Mickey was horrible. It was built into the storylines. They even eventually become friends with him living with her family on the Alt world. Rose's growth throughout that was the point. Yeah she was utterly selfish to begin with, but she grew and changed and accepted that she couldn't treat the people she left that way.

Also, in her defense Mickey starts out as a layabout drunk who would rather watch footie than take her on dates.

the whole thing was meant to be complex. And RTD saw to it that they dealt with every last aspect of that dysfunctional relationship and each character became something more responsible and adult at the end of the character arcs.

[Kanubis]

Oh, she was well written and developed. She was a decent person by the end. It just wasn't ever enough to make me really get attached to her. She took too long to be actually useful for my tastes as well, whereas Martha and Donna pitch in pretty quickly. Half a season of personal growth was too little for me to really get fond of a character who had pissed me off immensely for over a season.

I was fine when she was just with the Doctor to be honest, but every time they popped back and she treated Mickey like an obedient little lapdog I raged a bit.

I thought Moffet did RTD quite a service in the Vampires of Venice episode where he basically excuses Rose's behaviour by commenting on how time with the Doctor in the Tardis makes you disconnect from the real world.

[QuickTidal]

Kanubis, on 01 October 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Oh, she was well written and developed. She was a decent person by the end. It just wasn't ever enough to make me really get attached to her. She took too long to be actually useful for my tastes as well, whereas Martha and Donna pitch in pretty quickly. Half a season of personal growth was too little for me to really get fond of a character who had pissed me off immensely for over a season.

I was fine when she was just with the Doctor to be honest, but every time they popped back and she treated Mickey like an obedient little lapdog I raged a bit.

I thought Moffet did RTD quite a service in the Vampires of Venice episode where he basically excuses Rose's behaviour by commenting on how time with the Doctor in the Tardis makes you disconnect from the real world.

Like I said, she does this no more than 3 times before realizing it. Mickey is treated poorly by her in ROSE, ALIENS IN LONDON and WORLD WAR THREE...the next ep he's in is BOOM TOWN and that is the one that gets down and dirty to deal with Rose's treatment of him, ending in him telling her he's not going to be treated that way anymore and makes her start to change her ways. When she next sees him in THE PARTING OF THE WAYS she's dealing with the fallout from him doing that, and he spends the whole ep basically telling her that she's been selfish to him and her mother. He is then in a further 10 episodes. 9 of which he is treated not only as an equal but a friend of both Rose and the Doctor. I fail to see how this turned you off her so much, since it was part of her character arc and Mickey ends up becoming one of the biggest heroes of the series as a result. He also finds his true love in Martha. It was layered in this way on purpose, but I don't feel it portrays Rose in any poorer a light...she's human and as a young girl she's less than a paragon of kindness...but the whole thing is about her growth. You seem to say you realized she was well-written, but then in the next sentence dismiss that growth in the writing because 3 episodes turned you off of her.

I get not liking her as a character, but your reasoning is less than sound IMNSHO.