[polishgenius]

The fixed point was indeed the robot getting shot. The problems I had with that particular aspect weren't logical, but simply that it was cheating narratively. If they'd worked the Ganger into it it'd have been more acceptable, but the robot was just too rushed.

The whole thing needed to be a two-parter. It wouldn't have solved everything, but it'd have majorly helped. I mean, the wedding scene was dreadfully rushed as well, and they just scooted over the whole alt-reality thing.


Also, I'm sure that in the first episodes of the season, the Silence were working to bring their namesake, but now it seems that they're actually trying to stop it by killing the Doctor before the Fall of the Eleventh. It's possible they're deliberately referring to two separate silences- The Doctor's that they want and The Big One that they don't- but that's never made clear and just makes it confusing.

I love Matt Smith though.

[QuickTidal]

I'd also like to point out that the budget being saved to be used as a kind of cheap visuals thing in the alt-reality was a little lame out of the gate. The Alt-Reality was sort of a non-starter anyways as they could have done something else to "time" that would have made more sense than saying time is frozen...while everyone moves around and the clocks have stopped.

The fixed point being the robot getting shot I agree is totally cheating narratively, and on top of that seems so entirely lame to the ends that the Doctor seemed to want to go to to become anonymous in the shadows again....and don't get me started on him spending all of Series 5 making his name HUGE and painting a giant ass target on his own back, only to go "Duh, I shouldn't have done that" in Series 6 and realize he needs to ride a more fine line between saviour/hero and infamous. It seemed like an utter waste to me and is one of the main plotlines of Series 5 - 6.

Matt Smith is a brilliant Doctor...but he needs someone to write him better. Look at how amazing he was when Neil Gaiman wrote him in THE DOCTOR'S WIFE, and compare that to how Moffat wrote him in AGMGTW or THE WEDDING OF RIVER SONG, it's like two different characters.

I've actually written a long post comparing current WHO to RTD-era WHO at the site:

http://icebergink.bl...fat-doctor.html

[Primateus]

With regards to the doctor dies fixed point. To me it sounds like that these "fixed points" are interpreted by people and not the universe itself. Who says that the Doctor had to die there at Lake Silencio? It was all people. Maybe the fixed point was that the Doctor just had to be there.

[QuickTidal]

Primateus, on 04 October 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

With regards to the doctor dies fixed point. To me it sounds like that these "fixed points" are interpreted by people and not the universe itself. Who says that the Doctor had to die there at Lake Silencio? It was all people. Maybe the fixed point was that the Doctor just had to be there.

The problem with that theory is that in THE WATERS OF MARS when the Doctor tried to save people who died at a "fixed point", the main one killed herself anyways. I just think the "fixed point" thing is a little too malleable when you try to break it down and get around it.

[McLovin]

Basically, a fixed point is fixed, until Moffat needs it not to be fixed.

[Traveller]

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

The fixed point being the robot getting shot I agree is totally cheating narratively, and on top of that seems so entirely lame to the ends that the Doctor seemed to want to go to to become anonymous in the shadows again....and don't get me started on him spending all of Series 5 making his name HUGE and painting a giant ass target on his own back, only to go "Duh, I shouldn't have done that" in Series 6 and realize he needs to ride a more fine line between saviour/hero and infamous. It seemed like an utter waste to me and is one of the main plotlines of Series 5 - 6.

I just watched this, and I disagree that it was a cheat to use the robot - the fixed point remained the Dr's death, because so many thought that he did die there. So the fixed point wasn't really shifted - maybe he just had to appear to die, like he did to us and those looking on in the 1st episode. The plotlines for series 5-6 weren't wasted - at that time (ha) the Dr had realised just how much fear/awe he inspired in his enemies, and used that in several situations to his advantage - which was different to how he'd worked before, and showed a new side to him.

However.. by the last series, he'd noticed that he was drawing to much attention to himself, and those he was travelling with. His predicted death made him see that it did have to happen, in some form, to enable him to return to the more familiar 'manipulations from the background' style.

That's how I saw it, anyway. I thought it was a good ending, despite the fact that I missed the earlier episode with the robot in it, so I didn't know how all that worked. The whole 'all-of-time-happening-at- the-same-time-but-looking-remarkably-like-present-day-London-with-a-few-effects-thrown-in' bit was a bit crap really, and that actress in the eyepatch was just terrible, but aside from that I liked it.

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 05 October 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

The fixed point being the robot getting shot I agree is totally cheating narratively, and on top of that seems so entirely lame to the ends that the Doctor seemed to want to go to to become anonymous in the shadows again....and don't get me started on him spending all of Series 5 making his name HUGE and painting a giant ass target on his own back, only to go "Duh, I shouldn't have done that" in Series 6 and realize he needs to ride a more fine line between saviour/hero and infamous. It seemed like an utter waste to me and is one of the main plotlines of Series 5 - 6.

I just watched this, and I disagree that it was a cheat to use the robot - the fixed point remained the Dr's death, because so many thought that he did die there. So the fixed point wasn't really shifted - maybe he just had to appear to die, like he did to us and those looking on in the 1st episode.

Except again this is Moffat playing with the idea of a fixed point when it suited his purposes, and that felt like a cheat to me. Different strokes for different folks.

It's funny, last night in my post-DW slump and after such a largely unremarkable season I re-watched THE END OF TIME PART 1 and PART II (the last of David Tenannt and RTD's eps) and the difference in that finale and this one is so staggering. The whole thing re-solidifies my love of RTD era and reaffirms my lesser feelings towards the Moff-era.

[Traveller]

QuickTidal, on 05 October 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

Traveller, on 05 October 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

The fixed point being the robot getting shot I agree is totally cheating narratively, and on top of that seems so entirely lame to the ends that the Doctor seemed to want to go to to become anonymous in the shadows again....and don't get me started on him spending all of Series 5 making his name HUGE and painting a giant ass target on his own back, only to go "Duh, I shouldn't have done that" in Series 6 and realize he needs to ride a more fine line between saviour/hero and infamous. It seemed like an utter waste to me and is one of the main plotlines of Series 5 - 6.

I just watched this, and I disagree that it was a cheat to use the robot - the fixed point remained the Dr's death, because so many thought that he did die there. So the fixed point wasn't really shifted - maybe he just had to appear to die, like he did to us and those looking on in the 1st episode.

Except again this is Moffat playing with the idea of a fixed point when it suited his purposes, and that felt like a cheat to me. Different strokes for different folks.

I

Yep. I personally prefer the attempts to play with the timeline and time travel aspect of the Dr, which was largely getting forgotten in previous seasons - it was more about space travel.

There are always problems when trying to write these sort of storylines, but I still prefer them over the earlier seasons, the finales of which, although dramatic, always tipped too far into the realm of plain silly. (For example, the way Donna took on the Daleks after basically turning back into Catherine Tate...that awful 'head shaking' thing where all the humans got turned into the Master... and the ludicrous 'towing of the Earth' by the Tardis. Those were all built up to what looked like was going to be a serious ending, and then... crummy final episode.

Imo of course, QT!

[Primateus]

QuickTidal, on 04 October 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

Primateus, on 04 October 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

With regards to the doctor dies fixed point. To me it sounds like that these "fixed points" are interpreted by people and not the universe itself. Who says that the Doctor had to die there at Lake Silencio? It was all people. Maybe the fixed point was that the Doctor just had to be there.

The problem with that theory is that in THE WATERS OF MARS when the Doctor tried to save people who died at a "fixed point", the main one killed herself anyways. I just think the "fixed point" thing is a little too malleable when you try to break it down and get around it.

Again, isn't it just a matter of interpretation? Are we sure that the fixed point was that the doctor died at lake silencio or that it was fixed that he was just supposed to be there?

[QuickTidal]

Primateus, on 10 October 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 04 October 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

Primateus, on 04 October 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

With regards to the doctor dies fixed point. To me it sounds like that these "fixed points" are interpreted by people and not the universe itself. Who says that the Doctor had to die there at Lake Silencio? It was all people. Maybe the fixed point was that the Doctor just had to be there.

The problem with that theory is that in THE WATERS OF MARS when the Doctor tried to save people who died at a "fixed point", the main one killed herself anyways. I just think the "fixed point" thing is a little too malleable when you try to break it down and get around it.

Again, isn't it just a matter of interpretation? Are we sure that the fixed point was that the doctor died at lake silencio or that it was fixed that he was just supposed to be there?

Well, if we go by the narrative, Dorium Maldovar tells the Doctor that Utah is a "still point" (doesn't change over the years) and that that makes it all the easier for the Doctor's death there to create a fixed point.

I'm sure there is a little wiggle room there for interpretation, but overall it's probably just that the robot version of the doctor's death is the fixed point, and we are all fooled by Steven Moffat telling us the Doctor dies when he doesn't, and I'm totally cool with that....I just think that a Flesh TM version of the Doctor would have been a better idea, though we would again run into faking the regeneration energy...

So indeed, I'll concede that the Doctor's death is likely not the "fixed point" and only his robot double is...but I feel that cheap's out a bit...at least IMHO.

Still, I enjoyed (having re-watched it last night) portions of the finale, but the bits that fell apart for me the first time still kind of fall apart the second and I liked last years two-part finale better.

Did anyone else notice the person beside the shed way in the background at Lake Silencio? Production error, or are we going to be visiting the Lake again in the future?

[Coco with marshmallows]

Just a random thought I had today Quick - while you've made your opinion vis-a-vis show runners quite clear (i.e. Davies over Moffat) I'm curious what you think in terms of the overall quality.

Personally i'm of the opinion that the overall quality is better under Moffat. To explain what i'm getting at, I think the weakest episodes of Moffat are far better than the weakest episodes of Davies.

I'm really comparing crap with crap here, I admit, but i'd say that Love & Monsters, for instance, is noticeably worse than anything knocked out by Moffat. Yes, even the Lodger.

Again, just my 0.02, but i'm curious if you agree or not?

[polishgenius]

I don't think Love & Monsters is a completely fair example, because while it's an utterly dreadful episode, at least it was brave - it aimed for something and missed badly.

I think you're right in general though; I think the weakest episodes of Moffatt's run (though I do like The Lodger- I'm thinking The Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, the pirate one, the Flesh and Silurian two-parters) are better than episodes like The Idiot's Lantern, 42, the Daleks in Manhattan two-parter or (urgh) Fear Her. Heck, Night Terrors from this season is one of the weaker Moff eps, is very similar to Fear Her but is considerably better.

[QuickTidal]

Cocoreturns, on 12 October 2011 - 09:40 PM, said:

Just a random thought I had today Quick - while you've made your opinion vis-a-vis show runners quite clear (i.e. Davies over Moffat) I'm curious what you think in terms of the overall quality.

Personally i'm of the opinion that the overall quality is better under Moffat. To explain what i'm getting at, I think the weakest episodes of Moffat are far better than the weakest episodes of Davies.

I'm really comparing crap with crap here, I admit, but i'd say that Love & Monsters, for instance, is noticeably worse than anything knocked out by Moffat. Yes, even the Lodger.

Again, just my 0.02, but i'm curious if you agree or not?

Hmm, it's quite hard to quantify for me. Personally I think that the overall story and characters (as written) was better in RTD era, but during standalone stuff that had no bearing on the overall arc it COULD get a bit silly. That said, you will find no bigger supporter than me of episodes like ROSE, DALEK, FATHER'S DAY, MIDNIGHT, TURN LEFT, DOOMSDAY, and THE LAST OF THE TIMELORDS, THE WATERS OF MARS and THE END OF TIME PI & II all of which I think are the best non-Moffat scripted stuff the show has ever achieved (yup, that includes up till now), and that Moffat during RTD's tenure was absolutely STELLAR, I mean I think no one will argue that the very best that DW has EVER offered since it was revived are episodes like THE EMPTY CHILD/THE DOCTOR DANCES, THE GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE, BLINK, THE SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY/THE FOREST OF THE DEAD.

Moffat's era is more polished, no if and's or buts about that, and the sometimes-garish overall colour scheme employed by RTD is gone (though sometimes I feel Moffat's palate is too dark overall) and the special effects (for the most part) are nearly a thousand times more subtle and are better overall....and Series 5 kept me interested enough...but I miss certain things in the writing that aren't there, and Amy, Rory and River have almost become caricatures of themselves...

It's strange, but I think it would come down to an episode by episode comparison...For example I'd rather watch VICTORY OF THE DALEKS than subject myself to THE DALEKS IN MANHATTAN again....but I would also rather watch LOVE & MONSTERS and chase it with FEAR HER than EVER have to sit through the THE CURSE OF THE BLACK SPOT or WHEN A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR again.

If you put me in a room with Series 1 - 6 on DVD or BluRay and told me to watch whatever I wanted...I'd likely put on 1 - 4 or the Specials before I put in 5 or 6....If I had long enough in said room I'd probably watch 5 and 6 again, but they'd come last.

So final thoughts, yes RTD had bad eps (most of the worst weren't written by him thankfully), and Moffat's era is more CLEVER...but I think RTD wins me over for more heart. I still think Ten and Rose is the best love story ever, and Tennant is my Doctor which probably weighs heavily on my decision.

I'm not even sure if I answered your question...LOL....so I'm being crap as well.

No, I don't like it better now, I liked it better overall before...but I am still enjoying it. It's the difference between the excellence that was Peter Davison's 5th Doc and Colin Baker's 6th Doc...the latter was decent enough, but Davison was a revelation in a cricket outfit. If that makes sense?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 October 2011 - 12:30 PM

[QuickTidal]

So, since the show isn't returning (aside from the Christmas Special) until probably next FALL...I'm doing a re-watch on the blog starting at the beginning of Series 1 with ROSE:

http://icebergink.bl...-episode-1.html

[QuickTidal]

2nd ep of Series 1 reviewed.

http://icebergink.bl...-episode-2.html

[QuickTidal]

Latest News Roundup of all things Who:

http://icebergink.bl...ing-to-say.html

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 10 October 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

Did anyone else notice the person beside the shed way in the background at Lake Silencio? Production error, or are we going to be visiting the Lake again in the future?

Just saw this post. I assumed that was supposed to be whathisname-the-third, Nixon's secret service agent guy grown old?

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 10 November 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 10 October 2011 - 12:59 PM, said:

Did anyone else notice the person beside the shed way in the background at Lake Silencio? Production error, or are we going to be visiting the Lake again in the future?

Just saw this post. I assumed that was supposed to be whathisname-the-third, Nixon's secret service agent guy grown old?

Nope, if you watch the episode he is off to the left beside River (out of frame at that moment), but it's defo not him.

[McLovin]

But maybe he had to run over to that shack and have a quick pee.

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 10 November 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

But maybe he had to run over to that shack and have a quick pee.

LOL!

Perhaps, indeed perhaps!