[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 15 September 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

I will reiterate that there was a knocking noise in my old apt that honestly sounded like someone loudly knocking at my door. It was easily explainable once investigated, but that made it nonetheless freaky the first time I heard it at 3AM. It was explicitly 5 knocks. Every time. It was too specific to feel like a random house/pipe noise. But it was.

It's not really about "imagination", but rather REAL things that were explainable, which were not what the protag in those scene's believed them to be. Orson KNOWS he's the last human, but his mind still allows him to believe hull noises to be someone knocking at the door. Enough that he has to warn himself about it.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree with everyone, because I see everything you're saying: I just don't think the episode did it very well.

Quote

The Cloister bell is a TARDIS or Doctor in danger noise. It would not sound off from some nebulous noise on a planet it could easily shut out with the door. I'm pretty sure it sounds off because Twelve is unconscious.

That's an explanation, but I'm sure the Doctor's been unconscious before and it's not sounded.
I think Moffatt just had it ring to increase the tension and didn't worry about the implications.

[QuickTidal]

Blend, on 15 September 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 15 September 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

You think the entirety of the planet of Gallifrey is full of cities and there are no quiet places like where the barn is situated? Why would the young Doctor in the barn (which is indeed the barn from DotD, as Moffat says Clara recognizes it as such in the script for LISTEN directly in the leaked scripts) be on another planet? Gallifrey has always been his home as far as we have ever been told. He grew up there, and went to the Academy there. Why would he be on any other planet as a child? That makes no sense. Since both barns are the one and the same...we can more than guess that the barn is on Gallifrey.

The hoops you seem to be jumping through to say it's NOT Gallifrey are more and further apart than the ones that make it clearly Gallifrey.

Is it not easier to say that the barn is on Gallifrey since we've seen both childhood Doctor and War Doctor there? Makes sense to me.

My big issue with the idea that the barn is on Gallifrey is that Gallifrey is supposed to be timelocked, and even if it isn't because of what they do in the Time of the Doctor, they HAVE sent Gallifrey to another, alternate universe, and back in Eccleston or early Tennant Doctorhood it is established that travel to alternate universes is no longer possible.

Yes, I can see all that, but you're still presuming to know the logistics of the "time lock" when we don't really know, nor has it ever been fully explained. We DO know that the Time Lords were able to orchestrate bringing it back with enough power, we also know that a Dalek went in to rescue Davros from the jaws of the nightmare child...we know vagueries like it encompassed all time and space. Everything else is junk science right now. We also now know that it's in a pocket universe and not destroyed, nor even time locked (that phrase is no longer used to describe the planet)...a pocket universe which the Time Lords seem to be able to reach through (TIME OF THE DOCTOR) and affect our world.

So I'm afraid I don't understand why a show like Doctor Who, ESPECIALLY post-DAY OF THE DOCTOR, presents you with such an issue that Clara might be able to visit the Gallifrey barn on the (presumably) no longer time-locked Gallifrey in the past. Seems like it's much more plausible now than it was with Nine or Ten or even Eleven.

Alternate universes - Actually Nine and Ten were proven wrong in that recently when the Great Intelligence, a creature who was long ago exiled top another universe was able to fairly easily proxy himself into our universe again. But nonetheless the pocket universe, the remembrance cube if you will, that the DotD does to Gallifrey is not an alternate universe like, for example, the one Pete's world is in which Ten says rips holes in the universe....but a wholly different type of thing we don't fully understand.

Lastly, Clara's connection with the Doctor's time stream and the TARDIS as well makes her easy choice to find a way there. Bear in mind she didn't go to modern-post Time War Gallifrey, but rather she went to ancient past Gallifrey of the Doctor's youth.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 September 2014 - 06:29 PM

[Gnaw]

Blend, on 15 September 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 15 September 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

You think the entirety of the planet of Gallifrey is full of cities and there are no quiet places like where the barn is situated? Why would the young Doctor in the barn (which is indeed the barn from DotD, as Moffat says Clara recognizes it as such in the script for LISTEN directly in the leaked scripts) be on another planet? Gallifrey has always been his home as far as we have ever been told. He grew up there, and went to the Academy there. Why would he be on any other planet as a child? That makes no sense. Since both barns are the one and the same...we can more than guess that the barn is on Gallifrey.

The hoops you seem to be jumping through to say it's NOT Gallifrey are more and further apart than the ones that make it clearly Gallifrey.

Is it not easier to say that the barn is on Gallifrey since we've seen both childhood Doctor and War Doctor there? Makes sense to me.

My big issue with the idea that the barn is on Gallifrey is that Gallifrey is supposed to be timelocked, and even if it isn't because of what they do in the Time of the Doctor, they HAVE sent Gallifrey to another, alternate universe, and back in Eccleston or early Tennant Doctorhood it is established that travel to alternate universes is no longer possible.

True. Doomsday, the last episode of Tennant's first season. But then there's the list of times it's happened since.

• The end of time (Tennant's finale)
• The crack in the universe throughout Smith's first season.
• The Doctor's Wife. Series 6.
• Hide. Series 7.
• Day of the Doctor.
• Time of the Doctor. Smith's finale.

[Blend]

I guess my big beef with it all is that we have been conditioned for 7 seasons to believe that Gallifrey is not reachable, and now all of a sudden it is. I know there's a bunch of preconceived notions in that, but it just seems like a big fat retcon to me.

[Gnaw]

Blend, on 15 September 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

I guess my big beef with it all is that we have been conditioned for 7 seasons to believe that Gallifrey is not reachable, and now all of a sudden it is. I know there's a bunch of preconceived notions in that, but it just seems like a big fat retcon to me.

I get you. I feel the same about the "oh, I can never go see Amy and Rory now that I've seen their gravestones".

[QuickTidal]

Blend, on 15 September 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

I guess my big beef with it all is that we have been conditioned for 7 seasons to believe that Gallifrey is not reachable, and now all of a sudden it is. I know there's a bunch of preconceived notions in that, but it just seems like a big fat retcon to me.

Hmmm, I don't think anyone can say that with any conviction of accuracy after THE DAY OF THE DOCTOR. Gallifrey being unreachable is a wholly different ball of wax now that it's not technically time locked. So sure, 7 seaonss of it being unreachable...but the 50th changed that. HOW it changed that, we don't know, but we do know that it did.

Gnaw, on 15 September 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I get you. I feel the same about the "oh, I can never go see Amy and Rory now that I've seen their gravestones".

I had a huge beef with that one as well, till Moffat came up with a plausible reason why not.

Quote

After “The Angels Take Manhattan” last year, Doctor Who fans wondered if producer Steven Moffat had left a loophole in the series so that the Doctor could meet up with Amy and Rory.

After the episode aired and the Doctor stated he could never go back to New York to see them, many fans wondered why the couple didn’t just go to another city and re-connect with our favorite Time Lord.

Moffat says there is an explanation, but it’s one that is so deep in fan-lore that he couldn’t and wouldn’t include it in the episode.

“New York would still burn. The point being, he can’t interfere,” he tells Blogtor Who. “Here’s the ‘fan answer’ – this is not what you’d ever put out on BBC One, because most people watch the show and just think, ‘well there’s a gravestone so obviously he can’t visit them again’. But the ‘fan answer’ is, in normal circumstances he might have gone back and said, ‘look we’ll just put a headstone up and we’ll just write the book’. But there is so much scar tissue, and the number of paradoxes that have already been inflicted on that nexus of timelines, that it will rip apart if you try to do one more thing. He has to leave it alone. Normally he could perform some surgery, this time too much surgery has already been performed. But imagine saying that on BBC One!”

Moffat goes on to say that he re-wrote the exit for Amy and Rory multiple times, leading up to the story’s production.

“To be honest they were all quite similar. There was a slightly more involved version which put River slightly more central,” he says. “But I sort of realised I was trying to tell about four stories when two was quite enough. So I trimmed it down. Increasingly, the point of the story is The Doctor doesn’t really do anything for the second half except more or less complain and try to stop everything working. Obviously there was a point when he wasn’t like that, but I realised that that was the story. Once he realises he can’t escape the fact she’s going to leave him, he becomes sort of useless, and that’s the drama. And the dramatic heart of Doctor Who is very rarely The Doctor himself because he’s the man who fixes everything. This time he’s the man to whom it happens and that makes him interesting in a different way – and an amazing performance from Matt Smith as well.”

It all sounds like Amy and Rory won’t be back any time soon. Moffat once again confirms that he feels like that door is closed.

“You could never eliminate the possibility of dream sequences and flashbacks, but will the Doctor see them again? No. When I was first talking to Karen and Arthur about it, we said ‘let’s make it the proper ending’. Bringing back things just gives you sequel-itis. Just end it and get out. Heaven knows if they’ll appear in some form of flashback – I have no plans to do that I have to say – but the story of Amy and The Doctor is definitively over” he says.

Which MORE than satisfied me on the topic, and I was QUITE vocal about being against it after the ep aired. It's not that he can't visit them in NY in that timeframe, but that the messed up timelines are now damaged beyond repair for him to visit specifically Amy and Rory as they are at the nexus of this cracked time knot.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 September 2014 - 07:11 PM

[QuickTidal]

Just wanted to pop back in and confirm where I saw that it is indeed the Young Doctor and the barn is indeed on Gallifrey.

The documentation that came with the advance review copies of the episode explicitly stated, "Please do not mention the character we meet in the barn (the young Doctor) or that we go to Gallifrey."

This from the Advance reviewer at the Radio Times who explicitly says that the above statement was the warning that came fro the BBC.

Didn't want ppl to think I was talking out of my butt when I said that the barn was on Gallifrey or that the young person was indeed the Doctor.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 September 2014 - 05:34 PM

[bubba]

Was just rewatching Robots of Sherwood and heard the Willhelm scream. right as the robots start shooting up the achery contest..just after the second explotion.



Wiki Willhelm scream

[QuickTidal]

Last night's ep was good stuff. Not quite as good as last weeks ep, but still really good.

And they are REALLY focusing on every time the Doctor makes a cold decision in the scripts, and I feel that's got a point.

I'm now totally convinced that Moffat wants to do with Twelve what JNT tried to do with the Sixth Doctor before the show went on hiatus and ruined the chance to do it. Take a cold, egoist Doctor and slowly, through experience build them into a compassionate Doctor. It's a great idea, if you can pull it off. Moffat SEEMS to be riding the line and pulling the balance off without alienating people. The payoff should be good.

I'd like to note there is STILL a marked lack of the triumphant hero music, the Doctor coming to the rescue music, the epic stuff...you always knew during Ten or Eleven's time when to pump your fist...but it's not happened yet with Twelve. I mean he saves the day, but it's not yet been marked by music. I feel that this is also intentional and being saved.

[Gnaw]

Remember the "why this face" from ep 1? The scene where they meet the Teller at his cage is very reminiscent of the scenes from Torchwood "Children of Earth".

[QuickTidal]

Gnaw, on 21 September 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Remember the "why this face" from ep 1? The scene where they meet the Teller at his cage is very reminiscent of the scenes from Torchwood "Children of Earth".

I immediately thought the same thing, and then youtubed the TORCHWOOD scene to show my wife (who's not seen it) to show how similar they were.


Now I'm just waiting for them to reference the Roman family that he saved from Pompeii.

I wonder what RTD's plan had been (the same that Moffat wants to use now) for the WHY.

[QuickTidal]

There is a guy at work who is slowly working his way through the series with his wife. They are around the midway mark of Series 4, and they are truly enjoying...

It makes me interminably jealous that he's getting to experience all this for the first time...and even more jealous that he has all of Matt Smith's tenure still to come!

[QuickTidal]

Recorded yesterday in Cinncinati Eighth Doctor Paul McGann reads Eleven's Pandorica Speech. It's good stuff. I love hearing how other Doctor's approach this speech (Five and Seven have both read it in the past) bit of dialogue.

[Gnaw]

QuickTidal, on 22 September 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

There is a guy at work who is slowly working his way through the series with his wife. They are around the midway mark of Series 4, and they are truly enjoying...

It makes me interminably jealous that he's getting to experience all this for the first time...and even more jealous that he has all of Matt Smith's tenure still to come!

I did a re-watch over the last couple of weeks. It gives you a different take when you watch eps back to back to back. Like the jumping around and babbling half sentences when he's getting an idea and working his way through it. I wonder if there's a youtube mashup of those scenes with all 5 of them?

I'm that way about Roger Zelazny. There was a blurb on the back of one of his books from Silverberg or Voight saying something like "I genuinely envy those people who are read Roger for the first time." I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.

And a thought just occured to me as I am watching "Listen" yet again: you mentioned upthread something about Danny Pink might be the Master. Doesn't the existence of Orson Pink shoot that theory down?

[QuickTidal]

Gnaw, on 23 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

And a thought just occured to me as I am watching "Listen" yet again: you mentioned upthread something about Danny Pink might be the Master. Doesn't the existence of Orson Pink shoot that theory down?

Probably. It was an interesting thought, but I don't know how they would do it now with Orson clearly as Clara and Danny's descendant.

[Gnaw]

Gnaw, on 15 September 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 14 September 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

The wife thinks the womans voice in the end of LISTEN sounded like Jenny from the Paternoster Gang.

Ditto

Changed my mind. Jackie Tyler. But that could be just because I can't tell the difference between English regional accents.

Gnaw, on 23 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I did a re-watch over the last couple of weeks. It gives you a different take when you watch eps back to back to back. Like the jumping around and babbling half sentences when he's getting an idea and working his way through it. I wonder if there's a youtube mashup of those scenes with all 5 of them?

I'm sure it's a bit presumptuous to start this subject: I could see Psi (Jonathan Bailey) as the doctor. Based upon his come and get me speech.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 23 September 2014 - 08:53 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Didn't watch the one tonight as it's been a busy week so we only just caught up with last week's Time Heist. Sterling job. Thoroughly enjoyed it again. Really loved the memory wipe concept, the 2 new characters who helped out the Doctor and their powers. Am really starting to love Capaldi as the Doctor but I do hope they do the cold -> compassionate thing someone mentioned previously. I think he can do it and we see glimpses of this in each episode.

[Coco with marshmallows]

watched last nights.

Really enjoying the Doctors continuing vanity/ignorance with regards to Clara's appearance - simplistic but funny way of reminding us that he isn't human.

[QuickTidal]

It was a fun ep (about the level I'd expect from Gareth Roberts...but I think Matt Smith shined with his material more than Capaldi does), and it's nice to see some warmer momemnts with the Doctor. I've gotta say that it's rankling me a bit that we've yet to see Capaldi be compassionate and or truly warm. I think we got a hint of it in this ep where he finally says "Yes, yes, I like him....now go canoodle" about Danny.

Best scene was Danny revealing himself and then putting the Doctor right in his place about what he actually is (a superior). Loved that, and continues on the trend of dismantling this Doctor's persona and trying to force him into modifying it.

If, for wahtever reason, the Doctor continues to be this cold and unfeeling, I'll have a tough time saying I enjoyed him as a character this season. That said, if at some point they go full on compassionate Doctor a little down the road, the reveal on that is going to be wonderful!

[QuickTidal]

Also, best line in the epsiode:

Danny: "One thing Clara, I'm a soldier, guilty as charged. You see him? He's an officer. I'm the one who carries you out of the fire, he's the one who lights it."

Brilliant writing, that!