[bhok'arala]

It seems to me that a god can be fashioned in one's mind and with a sanctioned ground and spilling of blood, it seems that a god can manifest in a more profound way. In Lether, the errant stands for ths same things Oppon does. While mael stays the same on both continents. It could be that the Errant is just another name for Oppon (smae way how Annomandaris, Annomander, Rake, Purake, and Dragnipurake are interchangeable) but for one thing, Oppon and the errant can be in two different places at once (disregarding that Opon is really two people). Could the People of Lether and the Malazans both be worshipping (or not) the same god?

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't think so, they have different personalities.

[D'rek]

While I don't think the Errant and Oponn are the same, it doesn't mean something similar couldn't happen with a different god/aspect. There certainly are gods whom are poorly defined by their worshippers (D'rek is worshipped as either gender, weird), and of course there's examples of gods being worshipped from cultures that don't know of each other (Rake-lovers on Geneback, Bluerose and maybe even Drift Avalii).

In this specific case, though, the Errant was originally the Master of the Holds, and Oponn doesn't seem to have much of a past as anything grandeur. Meanwhile, Oponn is certainly the aspect of luck, good and bad, but I don't really see the Errant as a god of luck so much as he's the 'god of change', as Ganath put it. He fights stagnation, and he does it forcefully, so his actions are usually perceived as a sudden reversal of fortune. In a way, luck is like the Errant's means to an end.

And of course this is all semantics, but the Letheri like their semantics and advocates...

[Sparkimus]

D'rek, on Dec 29 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

While I don't think the Errant and Oponn are the same, it doesn't mean something similar couldn't happen with a different god/aspect. There certainly are gods whom are poorly defined by their worshippers (D'rek is worshipped as either gender, weird), and of course there's examples of gods being worshipped from cultures that don't know of each other (Rake-lovers on Geneback, Bluerose and maybe even Drift Avalii).

In this specific case, though, the Errant was originally the Master of the Holds, and Oponn doesn't seem to have much of a past as anything grandeur. Meanwhile, Oponn is certainly the aspect of luck, good and bad, but I don't really see the Errant as a god of luck so much as he's the 'god of change', as Ganath put it. He fights stagnation, and he does it forcefully, so his actions are usually perceived as a sudden reversal of fortune. In a way, luck is like the Errant's means to an end.

And of course this is all semantics, but the Letheri like their semantics and advocates...

^^This.

And Oponn aren't elder gods.

[D'rek]

Sparkimus, on Dec 29 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

And Oponn aren't elder gods.

...yet!

[Sparkimus]

touche!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I doubt it...Crone once said that Rake could easily "spit the Lord and Lady on that lovely sword of his." I wager The Errant (whom I hate) would put up a better fight.

Mind you, the manifestation and nature of gods is mysterious and infinitely varied.

[bhok'arala]

as for D'rek i don't think much is mentioned at all. and Oppon have already come into amnnomander's sword and left (althought with help)

[Aptorian]

What the hell?! Am I going crazy or didn't I respond to this topic a couple of days ago? Or is there one just like it in another forum...?? Well, this is just plain creepy.

Oponn and the Errant are not the same. In FWs casting in RG she and the Errant discover that within the House system is another pair of gods that use the Errants aspect.

Also, the House system/Malazans do have their own version of Mael. She's called Neruse.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Jan 1 2009, 05:04 AM, said:

Also, the House system/Malazans do have their own version of Mael. She's called Neruse.

Well I don't know if I would go *that* far... Nerruse is like a patron of sailors (sort of), not so much the god of the entire seas...

[Aptorian]

Just saying... The reason to the Jistal priests had such sway over Meal in the first place is because he's forgotten over most of the world. Neruse how ever is a well known deity in the Malazan Empire.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Yes...Elder Gods are Forgotten Gods. I mean, look at it:

-Mael replaced with Nerruse/Beru
-K'rul forgotten by the world
-Draconus imprisoned

Spoiler

but not any more

-Sister Of Cold Nights...dead?

And so it goes.

[Apocalypse Now]

Oponn and the Errant definitely aren't the same. Oponn's function is basically the fuck things up for people not expecting it or snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. They really seem to only come into play like that, when the stakes are high, Oponn can come in and turn the tables. The Errant to me like a god who likes to pull strings and observe, like how he was at the court of Lether. He isn't the embodyment of luck.


Now that I think of it, being Oponn must be fun.

[Traveller]

I'm sure there's another thread on this...

Whereas Oponn influences situations by the manipulation of luck, the Errant seems compelled to 'nudge'
choices or events to change otherwise predictable outcomes.

Anyone read the Silmarillion? As Middle Earth is created, when the gods create mountains, Morgoth tears them down; when the make nice rivers, he diverts them; if they form valleys, he raises mountains. He is the discord, the opposing influence that is necessary for variety.

I see the Errant a bit like that - he adds a necessary chaotic/unpredictable element to situations. However, whereas before RG he thought this was something he chose to do, in a controlled way, his reaction to the death of Trull suggests this isn't the case - he seemed to realise that his aspect makes him act, even (sometimes) to his regret.

Altogether separate from Oponn.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 02 January 2009 - 09:18 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I don't think so...being Master of the Tiles, he "controls the uncontrollable", and so seems to be a balancing force, imo.

[Traveller]

I don't think he had any control over Trulls death (Owl shadow etc) - he was described as acting because that's what he does - not what he wants, which is why he reacted the way he did. He wasn't described as doing something, and then regretting it, more like he acted because that is his nature.

But, I doubt I can convince you, mr LHTEC!

This post has been edited by Traveller: 02 January 2009 - 09:47 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Curious. Even Hood said to that guard that he couldn't help being what he was and so people would have died that day. But he did control his aspect since the guard didn't die and Hood said something like "it's my choice" or something. Of course Hood is a much more powerful God then the Errant

[Grand Puba]

Long time reader first time post-er. Things to remember about Oponn and Errant. Errant's powers dealt with "Holds" and elder gods and Oponns is more to do with the newer warrens and pantheon of gods (which some have sprouted from elder holds/warrens). Also I thought in BH or RG Errant notices that there is a master of the deck for the warrens (Paran) that was his equivalent in the Holds/Tiles

[bhok'arala]

D'rek, on Jan 1 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jan 1 2009, 05:04 AM, said:

Also, the House system/Malazans do have their own version of Mael. She's called Neruse.

Well I don't know if I would go *that* far... Nerruse is like a patron of sailors (sort of), not so much the god of the entire seas...

first of all, would you say that (this is real) the patron saint of beggars would be worthy to call a god? or concerted worship?

and although the Errant and Oppon come from two parts of the world and from different times, think about dragons. all around the world there are dragons in myths and lore. nobody met together to decide to fear them, they just...exist. (like some of Carl Jung's theories.) Can you be sure that the Errant had no part in affecting the uprising of Oppon? such actions create ripples after all and those ripples...multiply. who's to say there aren't more errantlike dieties out there? anyone know anything about the moranth gods? (speaking of which, someone in the pantheon would know something wouldn't they? are such lesser dieties so below them that they aren't even bothered with? the two sets of gods we know surely can't be the only ones out there.)

[Aptorian]

bhok'arala, on Jan 3 2009, 11:50 PM, said:

first of all, would you say that (this is real) the patron saint of beggars would be worthy to call a god? or concerted worship?

Uhm, yes I would. Mowri is the patron saint of beggars, Cotillion is the patron saint of killers, they are both worshipped and as such they are gods.

Dessembrae is also a god even though Dassem denies his godhood.

As such, from what we can guess, Neruse is a goddess. We've just never met the character.