[Monstroyer]

I tried searching and couldn't find this brought up anywhere. I decided to post here because this is the first book we see them but it's more of a general question about the Seguleh and how the ranking works.

so we know Rake beat a bunch of Seguleh and they said that his mask for i think the 6th or 7th is waiting for him.
how does this work for everyone below that? does the 7th down all swap masks? or does the former seventh now need to beat the 8th and so on and then re-rank themselves?

this also goes for Tool or basically when anyone beats a seguleh.

i know it's not really important to the series but just wondering if anyone else has thought of this or if i've missed a thread about this.

Thanks!

[Malaclypse]

I reckon that the winner takes the rank of the one s/he beat and the loser, should s/he survive, becomes unranked and has to challenge somebody else to become ranked again. Those ranked above/below the relevant rank remain unaffected

The fact that they are holding Rake's mask for him, I would think, means that it becomes unavailable until such a time as the absentee holder shows up. We know that the 2nd has been away from Seguleh society for quite some time and yet they hold the rank in abeyance in the event of his return. So, if the 6th is away, you can challenge for 5th or 7th. They seem quite strict about such things. Of course, if the First went missing, I think they'd have to break tradition and allow someone to occupy the position, at least until the first First () returned. Hold a tournament perhaps, and then a title unification bout upon the first First's return

[Dolorous Menhir]

If you actually think about it, the system doesn't make any sense at all.

So it's best not to.

[Monstroyer]

ah that would make sense. so if you lose you pretty much start from the bottom of the list.
BUT
say the 20th challenges the 7th, then the 20th spot is now empty...

i guess it's best to just not think about it

[Aptorian]

Hmm... It is an interesting question this. Perhaps if a low level Seguleh fight and wins against a higher level seguleh they switch position. Say 20th against 7th Seguleh: 7th wins and then the 7th is suddenly the 20th, no matter that the old 7th was actually better than the 8th, he will have to fight one of the above to take a high position again. Thus it is up to the losers to regain their old standings and not something for every other single seguleh above or below in the system to worry about.

I also think that the system isn't as big as one might think. There are levels of innitiates and I'm guessing it is only the top 50... top 100 that get the tittle of the number. If these numbered Seguleh actually serve as leaders, say captains, generals, enforcers of Seguleh Law, then only the number is of any importance.

[Malaclypse]

Thimking about it, the Seguleh ranking system would probably be as complicated as we could possibly conceive, ie., the 200th loses to an outsider and then faces down the 201st without a battle, who then does the same to the 202nd, but at some point someone grows a pair and has a go at their titular superior, which either sorts things out or makes the problem even bigger. Would make a good comedic shortstory/novella, provided there was an outside perspective

ETA: I think the 'ranked' are constantly sorting themselves out, that's the point of Seguleh society, you can never rest on your laurels - prove it or lose it

2nd ETA: Pose this question in the RotCG or DoD forum and we could go further

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Aptorian, on Dec 17 2008, 03:42 PM, said:

Hmm... It is an interesting question this. Perhaps if a low level Seguleh fight and wins against a higher level seguleh they switch position. Say 20th against 7th Seguleh: 7th wins and then the 7th is suddenly the 20th, no matter that the old 7th was actually better than the 8th, he will have to fight one of the above to take a high position again. Thus it is up to the losers to regain their old standings and not something for every other single seguleh above or below in the system to worry about.

I also think that the system isn't as big as one might think. There are levels of innitiates and I'm guessing it is only the top 50... top 100 that get the tittle of the number. If these numbered Seguleh actually serve as leaders, say captains, generals, enforcers of Seguleh Law, then only the number is of any importance.

why would they switch positions? Alright, hypothetically the 20th challenges the 7th (though in such a society this would be very unlikely, imo) - for argument's sake, say the reckless 20th kills the 7th and takes his place, leaving 20th open - in such a case, yeah, I think the 21st would rise to 20th and so on BUT I think such a situation would be very rare. They probably hold high-level meetings on Seguleh Island to sort out such things when they occur.

We know that a Seguleh can submit via body language right? So a lot of moving and shaking can happen in the rankings without any actual combat. If the 20th beat the 7th, he'd probably be catatonically worried about everyone between 19th and 8th rank. <insert best-selling didactic story, provided there's an outside threat>

bah, trust in SE - yeah, he is getting more self-indulgent as time goes on, I agree, but it works for me, I want to know what this guy has to say, really.

[Monstroyer]

it seems like half heir time would be spent exchanging masks or re-painting them. especially since they CAN submit without being killed, it just seems like an administrative nightmare.

maybe we should let this one go

[D'rek]

Here's my attempt at a fully logcial alternative that accounts for weird stuff:

So, the upper-ranked masks are in fact magically imbued with whatever spiritual magic is native to the Seguleh, and when a ranking member is defeated out and about, away from Seguleh lands and society, information is conveyed back to the central enclave on their islands. Of course, it is expected that the foreigner who defeated the Seguleh will take the mask and rank, but if that doesn't happen (and attempts to persuade him are unsuccessful), then a new mask is made and reinvested for the rank, then I suppose the ranks below can try and earn a promotion.

Now, if someone defeats an upper rank without killing the current holder, then either the previous holder is rendered without rank, and the mask is passed on, or else everyone does indeed move down one. All everyone has to do is add a line onto their mask. If so, does this mean there could be an increase in the number of upper ranks? Yes, yes it does, but really Seguleh society probably provides that the loser surviving is so infrequent that it doesn't happen anything close to often.

[wareonia]

Where does it say they can be deranked without being killed? Tool defeats two of them (i forget their numbers or names) without killing them and it makes no mention of him being granted a number/rank and the two are still mentioned after the fights by their previous rank

Also they dont seem to be the type of people to submit without a fight, i think this only applies to other races they meet.

I cant really see number 3 being scared of number 20 enough to bow out without a fight.

Even if you disgard rank they seem up for a fight just to see who would win, they are the most war like race i've ever read about. Their entire society is just geared for war. Life must be exciting growing up there.

[Soulessdreamer]

In a society with this kind of ranking their would proberbly be formal rules as to who can challenge who ie any one 10 ranks lower must defeat some one nearer your rank before you will/are allowed to take him seriously and slot the little upstart. Masks are proberly personal and making them may be part of the ritual of obtaining rank.

TTFN

[Hinter]

@ D'rek - I thought the Seguleh shunned magic? I could be completely wrong though.

[Mcflury]

Soulessdreamer, on Jan 12 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

In a society with this kind of ranking their would proberbly be formal rules as to who can challenge who ie any one 10 ranks lower must defeat some one nearer your rank before you will/are allowed to take him seriously and slot the little upstart. Masks are proberly personal and making them may be part of the ritual of obtaining rank.

TTFN

Nope. Anyone can challenge anyone. So basically rank 500 can challenge rank 1. Sure, big chance rank 500 will get completely owned and fubar, but the Seguleh aren't gonna walk up to rank 500 and say 'hey, n00b, you must challenge someone else first!'.

Obtaining rank also seems to solely happen through killing someone with a rank. Just defeating the person (without killing) doesn't seem to change much in the rank system, I'm guessing the Seguleh consider that a draw (since one party is too weak to kill the other, and the other party is unable to continue fighting, so is also too weak to kill the other) in which case nothing happens (so they won't both have the same rank, for all clarity)

And I also don't think, as Hinter hinted, Seguleh use magic. None has ever used it in the series for all I know anyways.

EDIT: also, when you're challenged you're not obliged to actually fight (at least not if a higher ranked Seguleh challenges a lower ranked Seguleh, the lower Seguleh isn't forced to fight. Not sure about the other way around). It is possible to say "nope, not up to it right now. Come back later."

This post has been edited by Mcflury: 12 January 2009 - 02:13 PM

[Aptorian]

I don't think a kill is needed to change places in the hierachy. Rell mentioned there being contest where judges made a verdict.

I also doubt that there is a lot challenges and general bloodshed in the seguleh society, I suspect they may have some kind of bizarro gentleman society where people are differ to who those who are their betters. If they feel a need they will challenge one to a duel and I'm sure that disarming or drawing first blood can be just as satisfactory is such a situation as a kill.

[Mcflury]

Aptorian, on Jan 12 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

I don't think a kill is needed to change places in the hierachy. Rell mentioned there being contest where judges made a verdict.

I also doubt that there is a lot challenges and general bloodshed in the seguleh society, I suspect they may have some kind of bizarro gentleman society where people are differ to who those who are their betters. If they feel a need they will challenge one to a duel and I'm sure that disarming or drawing first blood can be just as satisfactory is such a situation as a kill.

Myes, it could be that Seguleh are actually only incredibly xenophobic and thus only act in extreme measures against 'outsiders'.
But then again, it's a lot more easy to organise the whole rank-system if you only let them fight to the death. Elseway you'd get in trouble as soon as Seguleh start to travel abroad and don't read their mail a lot.

[wareonia]

yeah cause if i was ranked say number 5 and i went on a trip and some bloody b@stard beat me but didn't kill me. When i go back home you can bet the last thing i would do would be to tell anyone. I'd keep that secret close to my chest and enjoy lording it over number 4.

[Aptorian]

Yeah but you're not bound by seguleh values.

And besides, mocking the guy whould actually force him to fight you again to retain his honor.

[wareonia]

I mean if a non-seguleh beat me and no-one was around to see it would i still be beat?

I suppose yeah they are a race that seems to pride honesty. Their ranking system wouldn't work if they wasn't which opens the possibility that there could in the future be a corupt seguleh who could rise through the ranks by cheating eg. getting his mates to beat someone up before he challenged them or some thing like that.

I have a question i don't think it has been mentioned, In SE books there is no distinction between men and women when it comes to skill at fighting/magic etc. it is a very equal world but there doesn't seem to be any mention of female seguleh. Am i wrong or is this a rule of there culture?

[Hinter]

There are at least two female seguleh so far, but they appear in later books so I'll say no more for now.

[wareonia]

I'm not sure why but i hope number 1 is female. I think a crazily fast super swordswoman where she doesn't seem to move hardly at all but people just die around her, a shift of her foot a shadow of a silver blur and 3 people die.

I think that would go down well.