[baltimorebull]

Can anyone explain in something like a succinct way way the relationship between Rake and Mother Dark and his apparent brothers. I can not, even with all of his musings and the other character supposing understand what happened to cause this rift. . . and what his scheme has to do with healing it.

thanks

[caladanbrood]

Mother Dark crerated the Andii, blah blah, Rake, Ruin and Andarist (why doesn't he get a cool 4-letter Surname too, hmm?) betrayed her, by a combination of becoming Elient and accepting Light, and hence, Shadow. She cast them out because she was a bit pissed off.


Anyhoo, fast forward millions of years, and Rake deomstrates the true level of his regret by making a mega-sacrifice to get back in her good books and allowing the Andii their goddess back. Easy She cries, he cries, we all crii for Andii.

[baltimorebull]

I suppose I could not get more succinct than that. Still what a bunch of wusses. Mommy doesn't love them anymore and the pout for thousands of years, then kill themselves? and their reward. . . intangible.

Accepting light, shadow,and becoming elient, seems like they gained a whole lot more than remaining what. . . in blackness?

It seems pretty thin stuff for a thousand pages of brooding.

[Aptorian]

Darkness represents Order, Dragons represent Chaos. Rake pretty much turned his back on everything MD stands for.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah that would be like a jewish kid in nazi germany joining the hitler youth. only real world example i can think of with as much weight. except in rakes case time has no meaning so 300, 000 years is like nothing

[Jorram]

Erm, actually Rake, Ruin and Rist (caladan, you owe me a beer now ;p) didn't embrace Light.

In fact, the ANDII were pissed off at MD's accepting Light, so they plunged into civil wars following that event, asserting whats right and wrong and in the end Rake killed Tiam, switched himself and his followers to Starvald Demelain and this actually caused MD to forsake the Andii forever.

Need to be pointed out however that all through the book there were major hints that R&R&R were planning this all along, although no viable explanations were given as to why and what exactly.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

You know what this means? Now Tiste Andii will probably consecrate bodies of their fallen. MD has re-accepted them, therefore their souls have somewhere to go.

I reckon there's a huge heap o' stuff in this civil war we don't know, what with all the factions mentioned in Tth.

[baltimorebull]

Can we follow the symbolism all the way through. . . If Dark symbolizes Order does light represent disorder-chaos. Dragons then i would assume are the highest manifestation of Light. Shadow then would be the real realm, the realm where we all live within the extremes of order and chaos.

But as I think about it that realm is the Edur realm, and they are presented as basically stagnant, tribal, pre-civilized people.

Is Erickson suggesting, that living at the extremes is the goal. (Even if the gods representing those extremes are all deeply flawed).

[Ain't_It_Just_]

baltimorebull, on Nov 21 2008, 01:34 AM, said:

Can we follow the symbolism all the way through. . . If Dark symbolizes Order does light represent disorder-chaos. Dragons then i would assume are the highest manifestation of Light. Shadow then would be the real realm, the realm where we all live within the extremes of order and chaos.

But as I think about it that realm is the Edur realm, and they are presented as basically stagnant, tribal, pre-civilized people.

Is Erickson suggesting, that living at the extremes is the goal. (Even if the gods representing those extremes are all deeply flawed).

Dark, Light and Shadow are very old. I believe he depicts an ancient sruggle...but I don't know what.

He used the concepts of D, L and S very literally. Got some getting used to, at the beginning.

[D'rek]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that since Dark is representing Order, that Light is anti-Order. In MoI, Draconus talks about how at that time it was his mistake to think that only in Darkness could Order manifest. Probably, since Dark was the first aspect/element to develop to a certain, significant point, it was the first major manifestation of Order on a scale to truly defy Chaos. The others that followed, Light, Shadow, Life, Fire, Death, Waffles were and are also manifestations of Order, but back in those days Darkness was the primary Order and the others weren't really considered, either because they weren't developed enough yet, or else because Draconus and co. were just too slow to reorder their thinking.

Anyhoo, I find the timing of MD's embracing Light a bit obscure, but regardless, it seems to me that the Andii civil war was going on, and that Rake went and killed Tiam and drank her blood to get the Eleint-power and this would make him bigger, stronger and probably allow him to open up a lot of whoop-ass on his competition. And likewise it heralded a new day as everyone was like "Let's be soletaken dragons!" The dragons aren't a manifestation of chaos, that would be contrary as they've clearly existed in a well-defined, "ordered", form and place for a long time now, but they have some chaotic power in them, so this could be what MD was so pissed about, or else she could have just wanted to keep her Andii 'pure', and Silchas, Korlat, Orfantal and who-knows-who-else going and becoming soletaken eleint didn't really comply with that...

[Trotts]

I think, as stated previously, it was MD who accepted light and those sort of shunned her youth.

As well, I feel Light simply represents a different order, rather than a lack thereof.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Yes, I agree...I remember, at sunset in a point of the book, it said what each Tiste people did then. More evidence.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i remember that passage. the liosan despaired for the dying of the sun, the andii rejoiced in the darkness revealed and the edur reveled in the time in between light and dark.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Very enlightening, I thought.

EDIT: Wait..didn't the Andii wait in nervous anticipation for darkness? I remember only one Tiste kind celebrated.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 01 December 2008 - 10:22 AM