[Bourbonjack]

This has been bugging me a lot as well. Not sure why more people don't ask this very same question. Unfortunately, I did not come upon anything that might hint at an answer in MOI. I am hoping that more is revealed in later books. I doubt that Erikson would miss such a huge plot flaw.

[ThinkingMalaz]

Well she IS a soletaken and a very powerful bonecaster, so I don't think she is really a typical Imass... Still I don't think she is an ascendant, but something is deffo still hidden, I hope for some clarity in tCG

[Sinisdar Toste]

she's definitely an ascendant. after all this time as the only living bonecaster it would be ridiculous if she wasn't. at what point she ascended i'm not sure, but soletaken who aren't ascendants have been around since the first empire so i think that alone could contribute to her longevity.

[Use Of Weapons]

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

[Use Of Weapons]

BTW -- Scytale -- best character in the later Dune novels :-D

[Bourbonjack]

jitsukerr, on 17 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

...maybe that should have been spoilered? :dry:

[Hoods Breath]

Any soletaken or d'ivers seem to live forever.

[Use Of Weapons]

Bourbonjack, on 17 February 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 17 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

...maybe that should have been spoilered? :dry:

I don't know, to be honest. It's not information that affects anything, and neither is it a stunning revelation (at least, it wasn't to me).

[worry]

Bourbonjack, on 17 February 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

...maybe that should have been spoilered? :dry:

Agreed. It doesn't particularly matter how big a revelation it is, if it's in a future book it should be Spoilered. The little things matter. (That said, I personally think it's a pretty big revelation).

This post has been edited by worrywort: 19 February 2011 - 12:41 AM

[D'rek]

It is a big revelation. Please spoiler it.

Spoiler

We don't find out Kilava is whom Onrack was in love with until late in HoC

[Sinisdar Toste]

jitsukerr, on 17 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

i don't see how you can justify that statement. the fact that

Spoiler

she's also a painting on a wall

would have no effect on her longevity. she's 'immortal' in the sense that her image is forever captured on a cave wall. her long life comes from being a soletaken bonecaster ascendant.

spoilers from the rest of the series:

Spoiler

everyone who comes into contact with kilava steps down, unwilling to go up against her. silchas ruin in RG, the errant in DoD. why would they do that if she didn't have ascendant level presence?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 19 February 2011 - 04:28 AM

[nacht]

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 February 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:

jitsukerr, on 17 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

i don't see how you can justify that statement. the fact that

Spoiler

she's also a painting on a wall

would have no effect on her longevity. she's 'immortal' in the sense that her image is forever captured on a cave wall. her long life comes from being a soletaken bonecaster ascendant.

spoilers from the rest of the series:

Spoiler

everyone who comes into contact with kilava steps down, unwilling to go up against her. silchas ruin in RG, the errant in DoD. why would they do that if she didn't have ascendant level presence?

Spoiler

I give you (the trope of) Dorian Grey I think she is the first portrait. I am sure Mona Lisa is alive somewhere too, with false eyebrows for disguise.

This post has been edited by nacht: 19 February 2011 - 10:56 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

nacht, on 19 February 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 February 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:

jitsukerr, on 17 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

She's not an Ascendant, and Imass don't live so long. Kilava lived so long because Onrack captured her in paint, SE's homage to Wilde.

i don't see how you can justify that statement. the fact that

Spoiler

she's also a painting on a wall

would have no effect on her longevity. she's 'immortal' in the sense that her image is forever captured on a cave wall. her long life comes from being a soletaken bonecaster ascendant.

spoilers from the rest of the series:

Spoiler

everyone who comes into contact with kilava steps down, unwilling to go up against her. silchas ruin in RG, the errant in DoD. why would they do that if she didn't have ascendant level presence?

Spoiler

I give you (the trope of) Dorian Grey I think she is the first portrait. I am sure Mona Lisa is alive somewhere too, with false eyebrows for disguise.

all well and good, in fact, i'm willing to concede that may have something to do with it.

Spoiler

but if ganoes paran can ascend after less than thirty years alive (granted, with some extraordinary things happening to him) then an 100,000 year old bonecaster is most definitely ascended. 100,000 years is a long time for her to gather power and grow stronger. she just keeps her head down for the most part.

[Hoods Breath]

Spoiler

Kilava's son is also 100000 years old and I don't think he's an ascendant either. Her age is most likely due to her being Soletaken and she probably spent a lot time hanging out in the Refugium with her baby boy. We also don't know how powerful she really is.... Silchas Ruin didn't back down from her. He walked up to her son and took the Finnest. He didn't need to fight her.
The Errant backing down is no big deal as he also got Pwned by Feather Witch.
Just because she threatened some powerful beings doesn't mean anything. Lot's of characters in this series eat some crow after making bold threats. (ie. Onrack and the Deragoth)

If she ascended, then what did she ascend to? She's neither an elemental force, elder god, or a position in a hold, house, or deck. Unless we see something else from her in the series, I'd have to believe that Kilava is 'just' a powerful Soletaken bonecaster.

[Luzburg]

Hoods Breath, on 21 February 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Spoiler

Kilava's son is also 100000 years old and I don't think he's an ascendant either. Her age is most likely due to her being Soletaken and she probably spent a lot time hanging out in the Refugium with her baby boy. We also don't know how powerful she really is.... Silchas Ruin didn't back down from her. He walked up to her son and took the Finnest. He didn't need to fight her.
The Errant backing down is no big deal as he also got Pwned by Feather Witch.
Just because she threatened some powerful beings doesn't mean anything. Lot's of characters in this series eat some crow after making bold threats. (ie. Onrack and the Deragoth)

If she ascended, then what did she ascend to? She's neither an elemental force, elder god, or a position in a hold, house, or deck. Unless we see something else from her in the series, I'd have to believe that Kilava is 'just' a powerful Soletaken bonecaster.

Well...

Spoiler

The other similiar being is Kallor. If he can be cursed into longevity why can't kilava be immortalised by onracks "magic hands"?

This post has been edited by Luzburg: 22 February 2011 - 12:48 PM

[Abyss]

Luzburg, on 21 February 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

Hoods Breath, on 21 February 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Spoiler

Kilava's son is also 100000 years old and I don't think he's an ascendant either. Her age is most likely due to her being Soletaken and she probably spent a lot time hanging out in the Refugium with her baby boy. We also don't know how powerful she really is.... Silchas Ruin didn't back down from her. He walked up to her son and took the Finnest. He didn't need to fight her.
The Errant backing down is no big deal as he also got Pwned by Feather Witch.
Just because she threatened some powerful beings doesn't mean anything. Lot's of characters in this series eat some crow after making bold threats. (ie. Onrack and the Deragoth)

If she ascended, then what did she ascend to? She's neither an elemental force, elder god, or a position in a hold, house, or deck. Unless we see something else from her in the series, I'd have to believe that Kilava is 'just' a powerful Soletaken bonecaster.

Well...

Spoiler

The other similiar being is Kallor. If he can be cursed into longevity why can't kilava be immortalised by onracks "magic hands"?

The point, made abundantly clear in DoD, is that Kilava is immensely powerful. Keeping in mind that the term means different things in different situations, Kilava has ascended beyond any other Bonecaster, except possibly Olar who happens to be a draconic Elder God (and possibly a d'ivers manifestation of the world but that's an aside).

Mages are long lived. Shapeshifters are effectively ageless. Bonecasters are mages and shapeshifters. Living Bonecasters (as opposed to T'lan Imass who are undead via the Tellan Ritual) keep growing in power in every respect. And Kilava is the oldest living bonecaster in the world, and subject to what version of the timeline (is not important) you accept, may be a hundred thou years old or so.

So if the question is 'has she ascended?', in the sense of 'is she worshipped as a goddess?', then as far as we know the answer is no. But in the sense of 'has she become far more powerful than the average Imass, Bonecaster or Shapeshifter?', then the answer is absolutely yes.

- Abyss, ...important the timeline is not important the timeline is not important...

[Luzburg]

Abyss, on 22 February 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

Luzburg, on 21 February 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

Hoods Breath, on 21 February 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Spoiler

Kilava's son is also 100000 years old and I don't think he's an ascendant either. Her age is most likely due to her being Soletaken and she probably spent a lot time hanging out in the Refugium with her baby boy. We also don't know how powerful she really is.... Silchas Ruin didn't back down from her. He walked up to her son and took the Finnest. He didn't need to fight her.
The Errant backing down is no big deal as he also got Pwned by Feather Witch.
Just because she threatened some powerful beings doesn't mean anything. Lot's of characters in this series eat some crow after making bold threats. (ie. Onrack and the Deragoth)

If she ascended, then what did she ascend to? She's neither an elemental force, elder god, or a position in a hold, house, or deck. Unless we see something else from her in the series, I'd have to believe that Kilava is 'just' a powerful Soletaken bonecaster.

Well...

Spoiler

The other similiar being is Kallor. If he can be cursed into longevity why can't kilava be immortalised by onracks "magic hands"?

The point, made abundantly clear in DoD, is that Kilava is immensely powerful. Keeping in mind that the term means different things in different situations, Kilava has ascended beyond any other Bonecaster, except possibly Olar who happens to be a draconic Elder God (and possibly a d'ivers manifestation of the world but that's an aside).

Mages are long lived. Shapeshifters are effectively ageless. Bonecasters are mages and shapeshifters. Living Bonecasters (as opposed to T'lan Imass who are undead via the Tellan Ritual) keep growing in power in every respect. And Kilava is the oldest living bonecaster in the world, and subject to what version of the timeline (is not important) you accept, may be a hundred thou years old or so.

So if the question is 'has she ascended?', in the sense of 'is she worshipped as a goddess?', then as far as we know the answer is no. But in the sense of 'has she become far more powerful than the average Imass, Bonecaster or Shapeshifter?', then the answer is absolutely yes.

- Abyss, ...important the timeline is not important the timeline is not important...

For example: Anomander Rake didn't ascend, he became a Soletaken Eleint, and he had the power of Kurald Galain from his Andii blood. You couldn't really say he is an ascendant in the same vein as Shadowthrone or the Queen of Dreams, they obviously trancended weaker human flesh. The same was true of Silchas Ruin. Andarist still held a lot of power, despite not taking his brother's path, but he is very definately described as being a mortal Andii. But yes, she is greater than other lmass (except Tool?) and shapeshifters (except maybe rud elalle?)

I guess it really comes down to the definition of Ascendant. If it means one of great power then yes all the Jaghut Tyrants, Tiste soletaken and true Toblakai are ascendants.
And spoiler for crippled god preview:

Spoiler

Pure Forkrul Assail

But, I think of mortal humanesque people like T'riss, Caladan Brood, Kellenved, Dancer, Dassem and Whiskeyjack when I think of ascension. And I would include Treach because he is shown ascending. The others really don't need to ascend, they are badass at birth. Note: The Seragahl, just like Karsa but called gods.

This post has been edited by Luzburg: 22 February 2011 - 06:10 PM

[Excellence]

Onrack was a weak bonecaster; he says that about himself first time you meet him. It's never mentioned again. He had the hots for a woman and painted her on a cave wall. There was significance to imaging something you value. It affected her with longetivity.

Granted, after 300,000 years you have to be a potent power to survive that long. The difference between Olar Ethil's supposedly ubber power and Kilava's, is that the formner shared the "condemnation" she put her people through and sort of maintained her status quo. Whereas Kilava has had the chance to grow and explore new experiences and expand her bonecasting over milennia. Kilava's eye glitter was enough to stall Ruin's prowess; she would outmatch Ethil in a fight.

Such speculation is useless, of course, as the author kills anyone at anytime in any sudden way.

[L'oric]

Was this thread moved? Cause in the DoD folder the only thing that needs to be spoilered is Crippled God stuff right?

Kilava is one of my favorites characters. I eat the pages she is in with gusto. She has done a ton of things since being the last surviving Bonehunter and each can be seen as an event worthy of leading her to ascendancy. From filling the hole in the rent above Morn to withstanding the pull of the Ritual.

Sincerely