[Raff]

in the end i dont think it would come down to skill. these two guys are in the same ballpark otherwise we wouldnt be debating this. for brys to win he has to get inside of trulls reach, easier said than done when facing someone of somewhat similar talent. so my theory is that it would be a war of attrition, Brys circling and trying to get in close, Trull keeping him out. in the end it would be who lasts longer and so my vote goes for Trull just because i think he wins the sheer stubborn don't back down from anyone willpower stakes

[maro]

I think it would be pretty even.

I don't recall that it's mentioned that Brys has a Light sword. I thought it would be a longsword - i.e. a military weight weapon. No weak by any means.

[Ulrik]

In MT Trull sees Brys and knows that he isnt even near to that skill. Cant quote, I dont have book here, but its said in full force of this truth

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Point is that Trull is incredibly humble and never aknowledges his full abilities. If we reason on what we see him doing, especially against Icarium and Silchas, I think they are sort of on the same level. But, as I always say, this arguments are pointless.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 21 December 2009 - 04:31 PM

[JohnO]

Trull - he was knight of shadow, which in theory puts him on the same level as the other high house knights: Dassem, Rake, Osserc, Karsa etc. Which makes him harder than a coffin nail.
Brys was very good, but not *that* good, unless he was knight of high house seaside, following his helping of mael's ascendnt creche in midnight tides, but this isnt mentioned.
Actually, he wasnt a mortal sword either

Of course I'm basing this on the theory that the toughest characters are "knight of" types, but I cant think of many who arent. Seguleh First is presumably knight of high house seguleh/war/lurking or will turn out to be someone we've met already.

My theoretical rankings are therefore:
1. Any dsyfunctional malazan marine with a vendetta
2. King of High House X - super tough to be able to command the Knight / Soldier
3. Knight of High House X
4. Mortal Sword of someone
5. Soldier of High House X
6. First Sword of something and personal champions (when not also holding one of the above)
7. Non title holders

So Trull as a band 3 type beats Brys as a band 6

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

JohnO, on 23 December 2009 - 11:58 AM, said:

Trull - he was knight of shadow, which in theory puts him on the same level as the other high house knights: Dassem, Rake, Osserc, Karsa etc. Which makes him harder than a coffin nail.

I think there is a difference between being the Knight of Shadow and the Knight/Champion of Dark/Light. Rake and Osserc are basically Elder Gods, the only reason they are not the Kings of their respective Houses is that Mother Dark and Father Light outrank them as being basically elemental forces. There is no Elder/elemental creature like that ruling over Shadow.

I'm not saying Trull wouldn't be able to give them a fight, but I think you are taking the fact that they all held similar positions a bit too far.

[Ulrik]

Sorry, but titles means nothing in MBoF in case "level of ability". You cant count "X is Knight so he is at same level as Y, who is also Knight". Many titles are forced by circumstances. Some rise from need of house, some simply from situation (Trull). Trull isnt anywhere near of Rake, even Kallor isnt. I think that titles can reflect ability, but ability wont raise due postition (cant spoil from DoD, there is nice example). OK, can be raised by "owner" of house, but it wont grant something like same equality in level of Knights.

Trull is IMO amazing spearmen and fighter. And IMO is Brys at level of Dassem... and no, im not his fanboy, I liked him mostly whe he didnt fight:)

[Sanctume]

I chose Trull because I accept the "fantasy fact" from Wheel of Time that the greatest swordsman lost to a farmer using a quarterstaff. Plus I like Mat Cauthon from WoT and his uber sword/spear weapon. Trull would have an advantage in weapons if their (Trull and Brys) skill are of the same caliber.

[The First Ascendant]

I have to give my vote to Trull.

Like people have mentioned before, Trull stood his own against Icarium, the single most badass, powerful, and skilled being in the entire Malazan world. If his spear hadn't been shredded to bits, who knows how long he would've gone on? Maybe he would've even found an opening and (and I will admit this is extremely unlikely) been able to attack, injure, or even kill Icarium (again, I want to stress the unlikelihood of this. But it IS possible). And then he did the same thing to Silchas Ruin, another crazy powerful, hundreds of thousands of years old ascendant super character.

Yes, Brys is an incredible swordsman who moves ridiculously fast (but then, Icarium is fast too. Probably faster) and he has a thorough knowledge of combat techniques and their strengths and weaknesses; however, Karsa has proven time and time again that stubbornness goes a long way in the Malazan world, and Trull is arguably just as stubborn, if not moreso, than Mr. Orlong. What Brys did to Rhulad to was extremely impressive. However, what Trull did to Icarium and Ruin was more than impressive, it was absolutely mindblowing.

[Ulrik]

But one thing is only desperate defense (Icarium and iirc SE case) and another trying to win.

But Im not Trull hater, I love his character and even one exceptional spearmaster... but...

[rhulad]

I give my vote to Trull, if only because we have seen more of him and his skill.

[Juvenis]

I definitely have to go with Trull. He has shown way more skill than Brys throughout the series. He also has a major reach advantage. I'm a bit confused to see Brys with more votes. Yes, Brys is an amazingly skilled swordsman, but not skilled enough for this spear-wielding badass! How could he ever be considered better than Trull!?

...I heart Trull...

[Grayghost]

Trull vs Brys...I made no vote and here is why.

1st: different fighting styles. Spear vs Sword
2nd: both very skilled with their respective weapons
3rd: Trull was very defence oriented, especially against opponents who were more skilled offensively. Brys was a fencer, not a swordsman...there is a difference...he was a duelist. Precison with blazing speed.

I cannot vote becasue I see this being a long drawn out battle where the respective strengths of each antagonist cancels out the others. This contest would be lost by the person who made the first mistake, therefore it would come down to endurance more than skill.

Just my opinion...besides...no one really wants to see these two fight except on the same side.

[Avious]

JohnO, on 23 December 2009 - 11:58 AM, said:

Trull - he was knight of shadow, which in theory puts him on the same level as the other high house knights: Dassem, Rake, Osserc, Karsa etc. Which makes him harder than a coffin nail.
Brys was very good, but not *that* good, unless he was knight of high house seaside, following his helping of mael's ascendnt creche in midnight tides, but this isnt mentioned.
Actually, he wasnt a mortal sword either

Of course I'm basing this on the theory that the toughest characters are "knight of" types, but I cant think of many who arent. Seguleh First is presumably knight of high house seguleh/war/lurking or will turn out to be someone we've met already.

My theoretical rankings are therefore:
1. Any dsyfunctional malazan marine with a vendetta
2. King of High House X - super tough to be able to command the Knight / Soldier
3. Knight of High House X
4. Mortal Sword of someone
5. Soldier of High House X
6. First Sword of something and personal champions (when not also holding one of the above)
7. Non title holders

So Trull as a band 3 type beats Brys as a band 6

To my knowledge Mortal Sword is essentially the same as Knight, which I believe was stated somewhere but am not going to go find the specific quote.

And according to this, then Shadowthrone is equal to the elemental forces of Mother Dark and Father Light, as well as stronger than Rake who stated in the first book that it would take Shadowthrone and Cotilion to take him down (Scene where he killed the hounds). You cannot rank strength/skill or anything among the different houses, although you could conceivably within a single house.



Now, onto the Trull vs. Brys argument. Assuming they were both in a place where luck and environment have nothing to do with the fight, I would have to say that Brys would win. Both have show suitable modesty to not overestimate their opponent, Trull would have the stone spear(I assume) to counter the Letherii steel (as they are both mortal neither should break). But, Brys has shown his skill by fighting a being that had the power of a god controlling his sword and making it move faster and with far more skill than he had. And Brys simply dissected him with the loss of only two fingers. He defeated him.

Now, the counter to this would be that Trull fought against Icarium, who arguably is more powerful than the 'gods', and held him off for a time. At the time Icaruim had only the Keening on his side, an annoyance, but not anything that would affect Trull adversely. So, it was Icarium at a low level of rage (or Trull would have been destroyed by the keening itself) against Trull. Basically a battle of skill vs skill with a possible advantage of strength and speed from Icarium from the mild rage. Now, Trull only held him back. He did not get an offensive move out of the entire fight.

While Brys defeated god-helped Rhulad utterly Trull fell before a low level enraged Icarium.

[SpectreofEschaton]

I mostly agree with the above, except I'll add that, in my opinion, Rhulad would have been slaughtered by the very same Icarium. Of course, (A>B; B>C) =/= (A>C), so...that's not worth a whole a lot anyway.

[Blacksox]

Most people use the line in Midnight Tides as reasoning for Brys over Trull. Just because Trull was awed by Bryse or believed Brys could beat him means little

Sure it means Brys was probably awesome, but it means little in context of his skill compared to Trull. One thing that is a constant with Trull is his own humility. We see time and time again how awesome Trull really is but he seems oblivious of it. You have to take Trulls assessment of himself and then project him several levels higher IMO.

The best measure of Brys skill comes against Rhulad who obviously is not near the level of Icarium or Silchas Ruin. He probably at that time was no where near the level of even Clip.

[Avious]

Blacksox, on 07 April 2010 - 12:49 AM, said:

Most people use the line in Midnight Tides as reasoning for Brys over Trull. Just because Trull was awed by Bryse or believed Brys could beat him means little

Sure it means Brys was probably awesome, but it means little in context of his skill compared to Trull. One thing that is a constant with Trull is his own humility. We see time and time again how awesome Trull really is but he seems oblivious of it. You have to take Trulls assessment of himself and then project him several levels higher IMO.

The best measure of Brys skill comes against Rhulad who obviously is not near the level of Icarium or Silchas Ruin. He probably at that time was no where near the level of even Clip.

Erikson deals in First Person View. It matters little what each individual character actually thinks about another when comparing characters. This should be taken out of the equation completely.

[BuggsConstruction]

I voted for Brys. Despite Trull holding off notable characters and despite the inherent advantages that a spear provides Brys' skill was incredible. He crippled Rhulad and was handicapped by not being able to kill him. Do you think if Brys treated it as a fight to the death it would have taken him longer than two sword strikes? Brys also effortlessly beat a god.

[Silk]

going back to the holding of titles in various houses/holds etc... one could argue that Brys has always been the protector of the empty throne while Trull was new to the role of knight of shadow.

However all of this is moot as teh true answer is Seren and Trulls son.

[sappers rule]

I vote for trull because he held off icam when he was in rage mode and that is pure skill.