[Abyss]

caladanbrood;263882 said:

Paran is similar to Edgewalker, but he's tied to the Deck as a whole, not just a single aspect.

With respect to Edgewalker, where does this come from?

caladanbrood;263882 said:

Like it was mentioned somehwere (I honestly have no idea which book) Ammanas (where did that name dissapear to, incidentally?) rules the "gateway" to shadow. In the absence of any other powers, this is good enough, but anything liked to Emurlahn would still trump him with regards to loyalties, I would imagine.

'i always figured 'Ammana' is to ' Shadowthrone', what 'Meanas' is to 'Shadow', ie, fancy name for the same thing.

The 'gateway' thing is a theory, and maybe no more than that. If you buy the theory that the warrens have evolved and are human aspected now, then Meanas, along with Rashan, Thyr and Mokra apparently, may have originally been linked to or parts of Kurald Emurlahn, but have their own existances now. Not that this cannot change....

- Abyss, ch-ch-ch-changes....

[Skywalker]

Abyss;263466 said:

It's 'kin' in the aspect sense - each of them are linked to Shadow somehow, to different degrees. The Hounds are ST and Cot's to command, but Edgewalker serves the warren, not the Gods. Paran doesn't serve anyone. In TB we found out that the Shadow demon races, Azalan and Aptorian that we know of, obey ST, but he's reluctant to call on them because he's unsure of their obedience.

Edgewalker clearly has some power, but not enough to break his geas, or confront the Jaghut directly even tho she was threatening Meanas - he had to assist Temper.

- Abyss, vegwalker...

To add to what Abyss said, we also know from the Bonehunters that the Hounds don't necessarily listen to ST/ Cot 100% of the time - they wimped out when faced with Tiste Edur. So they too are servile to the warren, not the warren's rulers necessarily. And of course, the Edur are the kids of Emurlahn and all that.

[Abyss]

It's 'kin' in the aspect sense - each of them are linked to Shadow somehow, to different degrees. The Hounds are ST and Cot's to command, but Edgewalker serves the warren, not the Gods. Paran doesn't serve anyone. In TB we found out that the Shadow demon races, Azalan and Aptorian that we know of, obey ST, but he's reluctant to call on them because he's unsure of their obedience.

Edgewalker clearly has some power, but not enough to break his geas, or confront the Jaghut directly even tho she was threatening Meanas - he had to assist Temper.

- Abyss, vegwalker...

[Optimus Prime]

Edgewalker perhaps was the Element of Shadow back in the day...or a servant of the original power behind shadow.

[Mcflury]

Sparkimus;262996 said:

Agreed. Paran MIGHT be kin to shadow but just as edge and the hounds don't HAVE to listen to ST and Cot, Paran doesn't (and won't) either.

Would be interesting to see them lose control of the hounds though.

I never said Paran has to listen to ST or Cot. What I said was maybe he had to listen to shadow (same thing Edge had to listen to as he says so himself iirc).

So sure, Edge still has a mind of his own (as does Paran) but he's still 'forced' to walk the edges all the time (sort of)... so maybe Paran is doing something like that too...
Or maybe not... just the same to me I just thought it would be rather cool if suddenly it appeared shadow was controlling paran who basically can control all other warrens. (a bit like the malazan army now is controlling Paran actually...)

[Dammon]

If i remember correctly it is also stated that both Edgewalker and the Hounds a "bound" to shadow as slaves or prisoners doesn't it? whereas Paran is not.

[Sparkimus]

Agreed. Paran MIGHT be kin to shadow but just as edge and the hounds don't HAVE to listen to ST and Cot, Paran doesn't (and won't) either.

Would be interesting to see them lose control of the hounds though.

[pastures]

They are bound to Shadow bcos they are Shadow-aspected. Paran has no such aspect. Or rather, he is aspected to all powers/warrens/elements.

Methinks Edgewalker was around before the Elder times, back when MD still ruled the darkness, before the coming of chaos and Light (big bang). Methinks he walked the edge of Darkness, hence he is the incarnation of the pre-shadow element.

[Holsety]

Skywalker;263868 said:

To add to what Abyss said, we also know from the Bonehunters that the Hounds don't necessarily listen to ST/ Cot 100% of the time - they wimped out when faced with Tiste Edur. So they too are servile to the warren, not the warren's rulers necessarily. And of course, the Edur are the kids of Emurlahn and all that.

Is HHS's warren one of the fragments of Emurlah? Or is it complete, and a gatehouse to a broken hold? (that is, ST has full command of the warren but not of the hold)

It could be that ST just doesn't have a full enough piece to command everyone fully. Or that much like the beast throne he is unable to command it all the way (whereas trull/eres' kid would be able to). So the hounds, and maybe other shadow denizens, would be held loyal to the true rulers of the warren/hold/whatever, but those rulers just ain't there yet.

[caladanbrood]

Paran is similar to Edgewalker, but he's tied to the Deck as a whole, not just a single aspect.

Like it was mentioned somehwere (I honestly have no idea which book) Ammanas (where did that name dissapear to, incidentally?) rules the "gateway" to shadow. In the absence of any other powers, this is good enough, but anything liked to Emurlahn would still trump him with regards to loyalties, I would imagine.

[Aptorian]

It doesn't make sense.

Kin doesn't mean they are forced to obey ST and Cot, it just means they are connected to shadow on a deeper level than mere alliance. Both the hounds and Edgewalker have a mind of their own. Edgewalker has demonstrated in NoK that he doesn't serve Shadows new masters and his appearance in BH seems to suggest that he makes Cot uneasy.

I also think that the difference between edge and the hounds is that, besides being freakish monster shadow beasts, the hounds are still "doglike" and are willing to serve a master because it is in their nature to follow a leader of their pack. Now if one day ST or Cot appeared weak to them... there might be ascendant blood flowing in the Shadowkeep.

[Mcflury]

I finished reading NoK a few days ago (finally, had to wait for it to ship long enough ) and I have this (imo) intresting question:

In the booklet it is stated that Edgewalker is kin to the hounds, and thus he has to obey Shadow (but not necesairly ST or Cot). Now I was wondering about Paran, the Master of the Deck, who is basically also kin to the hounds... would Paran then also have to listen to Shadow?

Because if that's true, shadow's pretty overpowered, since they can just order the Master of the Deck around

Anyways, I would like to know what you guys think of this, and whether it makes sense at all

[Abyss]

Okay, but what is the analogy between Paran as MoD as Edgy as failed conqueror of Shadow now apparently unwilling guardian?

- Abyss, going all cross-examination on Brood

[caladanbrood]

Sorry, I wasn't implying Edgewalker was linked to the Deck at all. At least, not intentionally.

[Ammanas]

I believe it was HoC when that Edur sorcerer stopped Blind cold with a single uttered word. Then the Rope went on his killing spree so it was for naught. It seems the Hounds do obey commands--you just have to know the right words. I wonder how ST's control of the Hounds would stack up against the Edur.

[Abyss]

caladanbrood;263882 said:

Paran is similar to Edgewalker, but he's tied to the Deck as a whole, not just a single aspect.

With respect to Edgewalker, where does this come from?

caladanbrood;263882 said:

Like it was mentioned somehwere (I honestly have no idea which book) Ammanas (where did that name dissapear to, incidentally?) rules the "gateway" to shadow. In the absence of any other powers, this is good enough, but anything liked to Emurlahn would still trump him with regards to loyalties, I would imagine.

'i always figured 'Ammana' is to ' Shadowthrone', what 'Meanas' is to 'Shadow', ie, fancy name for the same thing.

The 'gateway' thing is a theory, and maybe no more than that. If you buy the theory that the warrens have evolved and are human aspected now, then Meanas, along with Rashan, Thyr and Mokra apparently, may have originally been linked to or parts of Kurald Emurlahn, but have their own existances now. Not that this cannot change....

- Abyss, ch-ch-ch-changes....

[Skywalker]

Abyss;263466 said:

It's 'kin' in the aspect sense - each of them are linked to Shadow somehow, to different degrees. The Hounds are ST and Cot's to command, but Edgewalker serves the warren, not the Gods. Paran doesn't serve anyone. In TB we found out that the Shadow demon races, Azalan and Aptorian that we know of, obey ST, but he's reluctant to call on them because he's unsure of their obedience.

Edgewalker clearly has some power, but not enough to break his geas, or confront the Jaghut directly even tho she was threatening Meanas - he had to assist Temper.

- Abyss, vegwalker...

To add to what Abyss said, we also know from the Bonehunters that the Hounds don't necessarily listen to ST/ Cot 100% of the time - they wimped out when faced with Tiste Edur. So they too are servile to the warren, not the warren's rulers necessarily. And of course, the Edur are the kids of Emurlahn and all that.

[Abyss]

It's 'kin' in the aspect sense - each of them are linked to Shadow somehow, to different degrees. The Hounds are ST and Cot's to command, but Edgewalker serves the warren, not the Gods. Paran doesn't serve anyone. In TB we found out that the Shadow demon races, Azalan and Aptorian that we know of, obey ST, but he's reluctant to call on them because he's unsure of their obedience.

Edgewalker clearly has some power, but not enough to break his geas, or confront the Jaghut directly even tho she was threatening Meanas - he had to assist Temper.

- Abyss, vegwalker...

[Optimus Prime]

Edgewalker perhaps was the Element of Shadow back in the day...or a servant of the original power behind shadow.

[Mcflury]

Sparkimus;262996 said:

Agreed. Paran MIGHT be kin to shadow but just as edge and the hounds don't HAVE to listen to ST and Cot, Paran doesn't (and won't) either.

Would be interesting to see them lose control of the hounds though.

I never said Paran has to listen to ST or Cot. What I said was maybe he had to listen to shadow (same thing Edge had to listen to as he says so himself iirc).

So sure, Edge still has a mind of his own (as does Paran) but he's still 'forced' to walk the edges all the time (sort of)... so maybe Paran is doing something like that too...
Or maybe not... just the same to me I just thought it would be rather cool if suddenly it appeared shadow was controlling paran who basically can control all other warrens. (a bit like the malazan army now is controlling Paran actually...)