[Jumpy]

Imperium Corruo, on Mar 30 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

RangerSG, on Mar 26 2009, 07:28 AM, said:

Imperium,

Karsa vowed before he *would* kill the CG...after he saw him freed (House of Chains). I doubt Karsa forgot the content of his vows, or their context. IMHO, He didn't have a go at the CG because it wasn't time yet. Certainly not because he doesn't want the CG killed. He's said he does.

Can someone post the quote where Karsa vows to kill the CG? Or direct me to where I can find it on here? I do kinda remember him making the vow, but I don't remember the details.

"He is chained, Karsa Orlong,"
"Then I shall break his chains,"
"BUT!"
"Then I will kill him."

Something like that, friend. Reread HoC a week and a half ago.

[Powder]

The loss of which god would most greatly effect civilization as a whole?

Hood - screwing up death is pretty monumental, but hes already died so...
Queen of Dreams - a likely candidate, she seems to effect life ??

I mean of all people Karsa is not the one to be manipulated, so chances are the god he must kill probably coincides with his goals as a whole... so really which god most greatly effects civilization within the world of Malaz?

Side note: I seem to remember Karsa saying something like to the tune of 'I made that vow when I was young and fond of making vows' and then proceeding to not hold said vow. SO even if he did does that necessarily mean that he goes through with it?

[Urb]

Some quotes...

House of Chains, on Bantam paperback, page 843, said:

'The gods chained him.'
'What do you mean?'
'They chained him, Karsa Orlong, to dead ground. He is broken. In eternal pain. He has been twisted by captivity and now knows only suffering.'
'Then I shall break his chains-'
'I am pleased-'
'And then kill him.'

Anyone know any other vows it might be? Technically, this isn't even a vow. I don't know, he was throwing around a lot of vows in that book. Surely there must be something more fitting?

----------------------------------------

Toll the Hounds, on Bantam Hardcover, page 890, said:

'the Lord of Death no longer exists. Gone. For ever more. Listen, I ride to the gods of war. Do you understand, torc-bearer? I ride to the gods of war.'
Torc-bearer? She sagged. 'Ah, shit.'
Toc the Younger spoke then, and told her all she needed to know. When he was done, she stared, the blood drained from her face, and watched as he gathered the reins once more and prepared to leave.
'Wait!' she demanded. 'I need to get out of here! How do I do that, Toc?'
The dead eye fixed upon her one last time. He pointed at the gourds resting on the stone floor to either side of Picker. 'Drink. Live up to your name. Pick one, Picker.'
'Are you mad? You just told me where that blood's come from!'
'Drink, and remember all that I have told you.'
And then he was gone.
Remember, yes, she would do that. 'Find the Toblakai. Find the killer and remind him... remind him, do you understand me? Then, torc-bearer, lead him to war.
'Lead him to war...'
There had been more, much more. None of it anything she could hope to forget.

Toll the Hounds, on Bantam Hardcover, page 911, said:

'The message,' Karsa growled.
'Right. It's this. You must not leave Darujistan.'
'And if I do?'
'Then you will have lost your one opportunity to fulfill a vow you once made.'
'I have made many vows.'
'I'm shocked to hear that.'
Karsa was smiling, but something deadly had awakened in it. 'Will you tell me more?'
The woman hesitated again. 'I'm reconsidering. This really needs to be private - no offence, Whitch - he called you that, yes? It's just that-'
'Tell me,' Karsa demanded.
Samar Dev was impressed to see that the Malazan woman did not flinch from Karsa's dangerous smile. 'Toblakai, you will be needed.'
'To do what?'
'Why, to kill a god.'
'Which god?'

Toc was Hood's messenger (what does Hood care if some god lives or dies?).
Picker will lead the Toblakai to war (Karsa will be in the last book ZOMG!!!)
Karsa has to stay in Darujistan to do this, so...

What gods do we know are close by right now?
- K'rul
- Some god freed from Dragnipur?
- ...
- Some god of war?
- ...Hell, my bet is on K'rul as well.

----------------------------------------

Abyss, on Oct 2 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

It's been stated in the books more than once that the Elder Gods are in some way at the heart of the conflict with the CG.

And the CG just seems like such an obvious choice - too obvious. I'm going with Krul.

- Abyss, place yer bets...

I just had a thought. If one were to kill off the Crippled God, what consequenses would that ensue? Perhaps the reason why the Elder Gods have not killed the Chained One is because if they did, then the knowledge might reach those who must not know: This is how you destroy an Elder God.

the Bonehunters, on Bantam paperback page 94, said:

'And is the Crippled God an elder?
Silence.
(...)
'Why?' Edgewalker asked.
'If he is,' Cotillion said, 'then another question follows. How does one kill an elemental force?'
'You would shatter the balance?'
'It's already been shattered Edgewalker! That god was brought down to the surface of a world. His power torn apart and secreted in miniscule, virtually lifeless warrens, but all of them linked to the world I came from-'

Skywalker, on Feb 5 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

I'm with our feline overlord on this...

The god Karsa has to kill is probably K'rul... I have long felt that at some point in the series, K'rul's structured warrens etc. have to end and be replaced by a more limited and limiting form of magic (or no magic at all), so that the world can be less chaotic.

That said, the death of magic would make any sequels significantly less... well... magical.

With K'rul gone there would still be the Holds, spirit magic, Kurald Galain, Starvald Demelain, Tellan, Omtose Pellack...

This post has been edited by Urb: 26 April 2009 - 06:05 PM

[D'rek]

I don't think it's K'rul, the combination of Toc and Picker means to me that Hood and Treach are both involved in this, and I really don't think either of them really wants an end to the warrens.

Personally, I think it'll be Kallor, newly arisen to a position of godhood, either in the House of Chains or otherwise. Kallor was cursed not to ascend, but that doesn't mean he can't be a god.

Or it's Grizzin Farl, now liberated from Dragnipur, who is the Tyrant returning to Darujhistan to conquer the world with his army of Toast, Eggs and Bacon, as Grizzin Farl is wont to do. The Seguleh are really priest-chefs, hence the skills with a sword (really just big butcher and cooking knives)...

[Urb]

Why would Hood care one way or the other? He's out of the picture now.

Trake I don't know about. I guess his powerbase comes from... worshipers? Is he even connected to K'rul's warrens? I guess they're probably allies of a sort. K'rul certainly is friends with Togg.

How does Kallor ever qualify as a God? How is godhood possible without ascension? Where did that come from?

[D'rek]

Urb, on Apr 27 2009, 03:43 AM, said:

Why would Hood care one way or the other? He's out of the picture now.

Trake I don't know about. I guess his powerbase comes from... worshipers? Is he even connected to K'rul's warrens? I guess they're probably allies of a sort. K'rul certainly is friends with Togg.

How does Kallor ever qualify as a God? How is godhood possible without ascension? Where did that come from?

Well, he was going to Darujhistan to become King in Chains, and we can see there is a cult lead by Munug there, so it's not unreasonable to think it might happen (except for RCG, damnit)

[Aptorian]

Kallor can not ascend, he can only be a god in name and tittle, not in power. But the question is if a mortal being still gets a powerboost through worship if they're unascended.

[Urb]

What? Since when does King in Chains = a god?
Kellanved didn't become a god because he sat on the first throne.

And they wouldn't be Kallors worshipers. They worship the Crippled God. Crippled. God.

This post has been edited by Urb: 27 April 2009 - 04:54 PM

[Aptorian]

Urb, on Apr 27 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

What? Since when does King in Chains = god?

I don't know about this. The other Houses that have Thrones more less elevate you to godhood.

The question is whether that is necessary if you're already a creature of power, like for example a dragon or Jaghut.

But more importantly, the house of chains is a house of flaws. Who knows if the rules/traditions of the other houses actually compare? Their positions are certainly different.

Urb, on Apr 27 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

Kellanved was not a god when he sat on the first throne.

The First Throne isn't connected to the pantheon... I think. But more importantly, I only think a mortal can control it and command the Imass. That is why they needed the flesh and blood bonecaster. Kellanved slowly lost control when he ascended.

Urb, on Apr 27 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

And they wouldn't be Kallors worshipers. They worship the Crippled God. Crippled. God.

It may be that the Crippled Gods followers are connected with the House, but the Crippled God is not in the House and Chains and therefore not affiliated. He himself stated that he left it to its own fate. I think he merely used the house to make his own aspect, flaws, a part of the pantheon. Giving him power.

[Urb]

Aptorian, on Apr 27 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

I don't know about this. The other Houses that have Thrones more less elevate you to godhood.

The question is whether that is necessary if you're already a creature of power, like for example a dragon or Jaghut.

But more importantly, the house of chains is a house of flaws. Who knows if the rules/traditions of the other houses actually compare? Their positions are certainly different.

Ok. I'll accept that it might elevate you to godhood, since Kellanved became Shadowthrone. But that doesn't mean it has to.

And even if Kallor does take the throne, he will technically not be a god. So he is off the list. Picker did not tell Karsa to kill Kallor damnit

[Aptorian]

I agree. Maybe Karsa needs to kill

Spoiler

Skinner, the actual King in Chains

But really, that sounds too easy,

Spoiler

Skinner is reserved for the Second

[Daser]

I think the Errant is the most likely because he is somehow sharing duties with Paran in some ways and the jesters in other ways. If we ignore all the war gods most others dont share duties.

My second choice would be Icarium. I think i remember Karsa making alot of promises in the beginning of his tale and some of it involved old texts about Icarium. Besides wouldnt it be typical SE to let us all believe the fight between them now was off and then let it happend or Icarium finally regains his memory just to be split in half by a angry Toblakai.

My last choice is unknown god xxx, it seems like this realm dont have any shortage of either new or old gods we havent heard about yet.

well whatt do i win if i guess correct?

[Aptorian]

Daser, on May 1 2009, 09:53 AM, said:

I think the Errant is the most likely because he is somehow sharing duties with Paran in some ways and the jesters in other ways. If we ignore all the war gods most others dont share duties.

That would be wrong. The Errant was once the Master of the Tiles. But that stopped. The Errant is no longer in that game but that doesn't mean that he might not try to reclaim it. What the Errant did to the holds/houses in RG shook the foundation.

Right now the Errants aspect rivals Oponn. The Push and Pull. They could perhaps clash at some time.

[Newbee]

Heres my go, hmm! karsa could be killing fener??? Fener to go all skitzo wanting to go back into his realm much like the CG.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Problem being that Fener is in Letheras and Karsa in Darjhuistan and Fener is sort of safe there and wouldn't want to leave to go a city where there is a convergence every two days. Other than that it could have been a good theory: the Wolves and Trake killing Fener so he can never reclaim is title of God of War. But we still would be wondering where Hood fits in.

[Powder]

What about the spider god that Mogora serves? I seem to remember multiple allusions to this spider God and his power within TtH, (mainly involving snell and mappo), and she seemed pretty evil so why not set her up for karsa to kill now that she has been eluded to in the previous book? Mappo could not travel in Burns warren because he was saved by that spidery magic so whos to say that she is not aspected against burn in general and therefore a threat to the world?

*Edit* My money is still on QoD, Dust of Dreams seems to imply that dreams will be crumbling to dust. Plus QoD got dassems sister who is supposedly hoods, maybe hood wants revenge?

This post has been edited by Powder: 03 May 2009 - 06:27 PM

[MTS]

The QoD got Whiskeyjack's sister, not Dassem's - as far as we know Dassem does not have a sister, only a daughter, and presumably, a wife/lover? So Hood cannot want revenge. Why would he? Dunsparrow was aspected to Death, and now Hood isn't. He doesn't really seem to care about the role all that much, so why bother with a vendetta, even if he is still kicking? Still, it could be her, based on the title, and the fact that her pool was filled with blood in BH. But I don't think it likely, simply for the fact that she doesn't seem to have as much of a role of others, who would be far more likely candidates for exectution, like K'rul or Draconus or Ardata (she seems to be mixed up in this somehow) or Mael even. I won't be surprised if it's her, though. Just wrong.

[Aptorian]

Powder, on May 3 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

What about the spider god that Mogora serves? I seem to remember multiple allusions to this spider God and his power within TtH, (mainly involving snell and mappo), and she seemed pretty evil so why not set her up for karsa to kill now that she has been eluded to in the previous book? Mappo could not travel in Burns warren because he was saved by that spidery magic so whos to say that she is not aspected against burn in general and therefore a threat to the world?

*Edit* My money is still on QoD, Dust of Dreams seems to imply that dreams will be crumbling to dust. Plus QoD got dassems sister who is supposedly hoods, maybe hood wants revenge?

That's Ardatha you're speaking off there. What makes you think she is evil? Was it that whole thing about saving Mappo? Yeah, that was really evil.

[MTS]

I think he might be alluding to the fact that she seems to not be doing all that much (on the surface, besides saving Mappo and whatever Mogora is doing), and her actions seem to conflict with others (Shadowthrone I think, Burn, all that stuff with the moon), which is why he's come to the rather harsh conclusion that's she's evil.

[Grief]

RotCG spoiler:

Spoiler

Isn't ardatha in league with the CG. She helps skinner, who is the king of chains.